Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 7th, 2006, 12:51 PM   #101
nixxerRsixxer
Homewrecker
 
nixxerRsixxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: humanresources
Posts: 3,280
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via ICQ to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via AIM to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via Yahoo to nixxerRsixxer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
There is no logical support for abortion, so you won't get any.

Bottom line: abortion, in and of itself, is a selfish act, and those who do it ignore their conscience to watch out for themselves only, murder becomes acceptable only to satisfy the needs of numero uno. It's disgusting, and no reasonable person would support it the brutal murder of an innocent child.
__________________
He had a steady job and watched what he spent.
He'd say I don't believe in payin' no goddamn rent.
I'll squirrel away every goddamn cent
and buy my own damn house in Kalamazoo.
nixxerRsixxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 12:54 PM   #102
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Well, I think that this thread so far has given a lot of support against abortion, but little for abortion. I'd like for someone to convince me that abortion is OK. Please provide me with some supporting evidence.

Here's what I've learned so far (taken from the previous posts):

Opinions on abortion are independent of religion and political party

Jeepfreak81 thinks that the value of life is dependent on external variables (ie. a life is valuable if it's coming from a rich planned family, but not if it's coming from a poor or victimized mother)

Similarily Purplejeep thinks life is not valuable if it is a handicapped or drug addicted baby, so they should be killed off too (maybe even after birth?)

FrankN'Brew thinks unborn babies are like tumors

MikeSova thinks abortion is like the death penalty and war......he's all for it

artistic gore is 100% sure his mom had to kill his older sibling or he wouldn't be here, however his wife stood the same probability of death and by some miricle she survived the birth of thier son. alleluia

3-foot has shown that if someone doesn't have a voice to defend themselves then the A/B model doesn't apply.

Barb thinks it's a good idea to kill black babies to prevent them from having to suffer slavery

Skyypunk thinks its OK to bash a pregnant woman in the gut with a baseball bat and only get a minor offense of assult. And Skyypunk thinks a human baby has the same value as all living creatures (including a stalk of corn or a colony of bacteria living in your nose).

Did I miss anyone? Just making sure I am summarizing the pro-choice arguments so far.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 12:54 PM   #103
Miffy
Senior Member
 
Miffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: My home
Posts: 5,826
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to Miffy
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
Let me get this straight. You would never abort, you hope that women who do are haunted in their dreams... and yet you support the abortion industry?

Whats with the disconnect there? Why would you suport something and not support it at the same time? I don't see any room for a gray area here...

You support the murder of babies with yoru vote, perhaps YOU should have haunting dreams at night.

I sleep just fine, its just not my place to judge people on what they do in life. I live with my own feeling of what is right and wrong. Same as to wear a seat belt or not. I don't think others should tell me what to do as you should not be telling these women what they should do. Why don't we just cut every guys nuts off that makes one of these women preg? are there not two people involved in this? Why is it alway the woman that is the Bad person? Who are you or anyone to make these choice for another human? Do I think its Wrong? Dam Stright I do but its not for me to choose for another. If it was men carring and taking care of a child the rest of there lives there would be a bunch of you saying don't tell me what to do.
Miffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 12:58 PM   #104
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffy View Post
I sleep just fine, its just not my place to judge people on what they do in life. I live with my own feeling of what is right and wrong.
I agree. Anarchy is the only way. Everyone do their own thing with no judicial or legislative process to get in the way. BTW, that means you may have some new neighbors as they had better let go of all those prisoners in West Branch today. Just do your own thing and don't worry if they someone murders your friend, so long as it doesn't impact you...........

And this is for that comment my dear: :miff:
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:21 PM   #105
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."( Patrick Henry, March 23,1775 )

That is the demeaner our founding fathers had, that drove them to start this great nation. And it is still alive in me for one.

I am pro-choice on the ideals of freedom. I don't like abortion, and can not argue in favor of it. My point of view is that it is not cut and dry. So the government should keep its nose out. Each and every case should be decided on by the women, her doctor, and friends & family.
Don't even go there on founding fathers...

So only on the merit that their might be gray area means that abortion should be legal? How do you justify that in light of the fact that abortion kills a new life? How does that affect your decision making? How is that a part of your consideration!?
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:32 PM   #106
nixxerRsixxer
Homewrecker
 
nixxerRsixxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: humanresources
Posts: 3,280
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via ICQ to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via AIM to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via Yahoo to nixxerRsixxer
Default

The real question is when does a baby become a baby? ..

if you want to get rid of abortion find away for doctors to remove the fertilized egg/fetus at any stage during the pregnancy and live outside the mother. then you will have solved both things.. a mother that does not want the child for any reason (and does not have to go through child birth or full term) and also no abortion.
__________________
He had a steady job and watched what he spent.
He'd say I don't believe in payin' no goddamn rent.
I'll squirrel away every goddamn cent
and buy my own damn house in Kalamazoo.
nixxerRsixxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:37 PM   #107
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffy View Post
I sleep just fine, its just not my place to judge people on what they do in life. I live with my own feeling of what is right and wrong. Same as to wear a seat belt or not. I don't think others should tell me what to do as you should not be telling these women what they should do. Why don't we just cut every guys nuts off that makes one of these women preg? are there not two people involved in this? Why is it alway the woman that is the Bad person? Who are you or anyone to make these choice for another human? Do I think its Wrong? Dam Stright I do but its not for me to choose for another. If it was men carring and taking care of a child the rest of there lives there would be a bunch of you saying don't tell me what to do.
If it's not your place to judge, then I sure hope you did not vote this morning, because that is judging! Oh wait, you did vote, that means you told someone whether they should or should not kill doves. How could you!!?? I can't beleive you judge pople like that Miffy!

I will tell women not to abort the same way I will tell women not to kill their unruly husbands! WOMEN.. DON'T MURDER ANYONE AT ALL!!!

Sure, I would not be opposed to a castration, some men really deserve it, bring it on. Men MUST be responsible too!

Miffy, when you know in your heart and mind that somethign is WRONG, why would that not be followed with your vote? How can you vote against your conscience?
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:44 PM   #108
Squat_More
More Mud More Fun
 
Squat_More's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-11-06
Location: W. Branch
Posts: 92
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Squat_More
Default

I am pro-life/ pro-choice. I'd rather see any child born and live life than to be deprived of not experince any of it, if any woman could live without that, I hope they live a life of "WHAT IF", I know it sounds harsh, but that is where I stand. My husband and I butt heads on the subject of abortion all the time, I see his views with the goverment should not be able to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and I agree with that, but woman should not use it as a birth control, to me the whole subject is sickening.

I am againist the death penality, I know it is our tax dollars, but I would rather see that person go through hell in prison than take the easy way out.

Ppl will disagree with me on what I am saying and that is fine with me, everyone is intitled to their own opinion and their own choices. This is how I feel and this is where I will stand.
Squat_More is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:47 PM   #109
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyxis View Post
The real question is when does a baby become a baby? ..

if you want to get rid of abortion find away for doctors to remove the fertilized egg/fetus at any stage during the pregnancy and live outside the mother. then you will have solved both things.. a mother that does not want the child for any reason (and does not have to go through child birth or full term) and also no abortion.
There is no way to do that. Only a newly fertilized egg can be transplanted, not a child with its own unique dna, its own blood type, heartbeat, arms, legs, eyes, fingers, intestines, etc; a child that is a few weeks along has a placenta which is attached to the mother, and cannot be transplanted. I imagine it woudl be rejecte3d as a foreign body. If technology advances to allow this type of thing, it obviously would be ideal. But the reality is that such a thing is not even remotely available, and our only choice is to support or reject abortion. Based on which you do, there are other things to supplement it. For example, those against abortion can help fund adoption programs. But ultimately, as of today, our only choice is to vote for or against abortion, there is no middle ground, that is a fantasy.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:53 PM   #110
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squat_More View Post
1. I see his views with the goverment should not be able to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body

2. to me the whole subject is sickening.
1. Your husband forgets that the baby is NOT her, it is a new life which is temporarily housed in her, but it is not her. So she should not be able to just lop off and kill the baby. It's far different than having a tumor removed, a tumor is the woman's body, the baby is NOT. But everyone ignores this difference.

2. SERIOUSLY! It is disgusting!!
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:55 PM   #111
Barb
comeback kid
 
Barb's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: royal oak
Posts: 946
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Barb
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post

Barb thinks it's a good idea to kill black babies to prevent them from having to suffer slavery

Just making sure I am summarizing the pro-choice arguments so far.



i think i said it was an interesting read.

Another reason why these things are dumb to argue. people actually get pissed and twist things around. good call- makes you look better.
Barb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 01:58 PM   #112
jeepfreak81
81 inches of fun
 
jeepfreak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Lennon, Mi
Posts: 12,150
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to jeepfreak81 Send a message via MSN to jeepfreak81 Send a message via Yahoo to jeepfreak81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Well, I think that this thread so far has given a lot of support against abortion, but little for abortion. I'd like for someone to convince me that abortion is OK. Please provide me with some supporting evidence.

Jeepfreak81 thinks that the value of life is dependent on external variables (ie. a life is valuable if it's coming from a rich planned family, but not if it's coming from a poor or victimized mother)
No us reasonable people left the thread because we know we will not convince the other party... and that is not what I said at all... thanks for twisting my words and misquoting me, I love you too... you left out a lot of context

You guys remind me of PETA (not the ones eating tasty animals) they fight against euthanizing animals, but yet has euthanized thousands of them themselves. Hell or even the people that fought against clubbing of seals, they couldn't find anyone doing it for their documentary, so they did it themselves.

You speak out against it, but If your wife/daughter/sister/mother were raped and pregnant I bet the consideration would roll across the table in the first few weeks, whether you say so or not. Hell some probably would pop 4 or 5 BC pills or morning after pills to force a miscarriage, then claim 'act of god'

Dave keeps using the 'coat hanger' philosophy using the gruesomeness of a late term abortion... a raped woman would know within a couple weeks, that philosophy doesnt apply, and early enough it would not cause harm to the mother.

You guys are blind to think that if it was illegal then it would stop, you are allso blind to think that they would be sent to jail, I would like to see the jury send a raped woman to jail. We would just have MORE underage couples beating their bellies with baseball bats, more back alley abortions (that are very gruesome and injure the mother) and more babies ending up in the fostercare system, and there are PLENTY of US babies now waiting to be adopted I have enough adoptee's in my family to know that it is easy enough, the problem is no one wants the children that may have some problems or issues, they want the cute little perfect baby, so they ignore what is here and fly to Russia, or Africa and find one that doesn't.


Anyone else find it ironic the Super christians are judging us all as murderers :tonka: when it is god who should judge? I don't know all my feelings in god, but I feel if I am fair and moral and make the best decision at the time 'god' if he is around will support my decision, I lead the best life I can.
jeepfreak81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 03:19 PM   #113
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
1. No us reasonable people left the thread because we know we will not convince the other party.

2. You speak out against it, but If your wife/daughter/sister/mother were raped and pregnant I bet the consideration would roll across the table in the first few weeks, whether you say so or not. Hell some probably would pop 4 or 5 BC pills or morning after pills to force a miscarriage, then claim 'act of god'

3. Dave keeps using the 'coat hanger' philosophy using the gruesomeness of a late term abortion... a raped woman would know within a couple weeks, that philosophy doesnt apply, and early enough it would not cause harm to the mother.

4. You guys are blind to think that if it was illegal then it would stop.

5. I have enough adoptee's in my family to know that it is easy enough, the problem is no one wants the children that may have some problems or issues, they want the cute little perfect baby, so they ignore what is here and fly to Russia, or Africa and find one that doesn't.

6. Anyone else find it ironic the Super christians are judging us all as murderers :tonka: when it is god who should judge? I don't know all my feelings in god, but I feel if I am fair and moral and make the best decision at the time 'god' if he is around will support my decision, I lead the best life I can.
1. And thats because you have no ground to stand on, so you retreat. If you had a point to make, you would have made it.

2. Let me address this: if my wife was raped and became pregnant, I woudl keep the child. We have already decided long ago that we would keep the child because the child did nothing wrong. The rapist did wrong. If I had to kill anyone, I would tear the rapist into peices, not the child who was innocent and does not deserve death. Believe me, I have had this conversation wiht my wife, and the matter is settled if that circumstance occurs. We would keep and raise the child as our own. If God brings us to it, he'll bring us through it. Period.

3. I am referring to a typical abortion, they have to scrape the baby out, its not just a happy-go-lucky mole-removal type of procedure. I am not talking late term either. Late term is the brain suck, early term is the scrape into peices (not back alley, abortion clicnic). My concern is not the level of pain a other may have during abortion, instead my concern is tha fact that she is brutally killing her baby.

4. Did I ever say it would stop? No. I simply want it illegal. This would eliminate convenience abortions, and make people think and behave proactively. When someone knows they will need to be responsible, they tend to do things differently. And if a woman shoves a hanger up her vag, she knows the risks she is taking, and is brining known harm to herself. I can't help some crazy people's potential decisions to harm themselves.

5. Oh really? About how much money did it cost the parent to adopt? How lengthy was the process? How many thousands of infants did they have to choose from? So babies from Africa or otherwise have no problems?

6. Nobody is trying to be a super christian, as a matter of fact I have not said one word about God's opinion on life. I am justmad that our society supports the killing of innocent victims, which is wrong! If God wants you or I to do anything, he woudl want us to do what is right, and nobody can justify killing a baby as the "right thing" to do. Now you've done it, you made me bring out the God talk! Look out, I'm gonna start preachin!

Last edited by Dave Kerwin; November 7th, 2006 at 04:05 PM.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 03:49 PM   #114
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Direct quotes from Barb and jeepfreak81 (btw, don't get defensive, I didn't state any opion of your point of view):

Barb "Have you ever read Toni Morrison's Beloved? Basically- a runaway slave is about to be caught. To protect her born child from the horrors of slavery, she kills her; believing that death was better than having to live as a slave. interesting act out of love isn't it?" - so if this example wasn't brought up by you to parallel abortion, why was it added to the thread?


jeepfreak81 "I DO NOT think it should be used as a form of 'birth control' but in cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother I think that is the exception....." - What was it I said "Jeepfreak81 thinks that the value of life is dependent on external variables". FYI, the fact that you think abortion is OK in some circumstances but not others is EXACTLY what it means to say that the value of life is dependent (conditional) on external variables.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:

Last edited by amc78cj7; November 7th, 2006 at 03:59 PM.
amc78cj7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:04 PM   #115
Barb
comeback kid
 
Barb's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: royal oak
Posts: 946
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Barb
Default

[QUOTE=amc78cj7;306822]Direct quotes from Barb and jeepfreak81 (btw, don't get defensive, I didn't state any opion of your point of view):

Barb "Have you ever read Toni Morrison's Beloved? Basically- a runaway slave is about to be caught. To protect her born child from the horrors of slavery, she kills her; believing that death was better than having to live as a slave. interesting act out of love isn't it?" - so if this example wasn't brought up by you to parallel abortion, why was it added to the thread?

/Quote i suck at it. ]

1). Because you said something about the difference between killing an unborn baby and a baby who was already born. All this does is address a child that was already alive, and a mother doing what she believed best for her child.
2) It shows that people have different beliefs about what is right/wrong, best for their own situation.
Barb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:09 PM   #116
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
It shows that people have different beliefs about what is right/wrong, best for their own situation.
And if I deside that my nagging wife is too annoying to be around, can I just make her swim with the fishes... because its best for MY OWN situation? (Barb, that is your logic!)

Do you want that type of action legal in the country you live in?

If not.. how is abortion different? What qualifies abortion as less than murder?
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:14 PM   #117
shaker
In the band!
 
Join Date: 09-10-06
Location: West Branch
Posts: 1,070
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
Don't even go there on founding fathers...

So only on the merit that their might be gray area means that abortion should be legal? How do you justify that in light of the fact that abortion kills a new life? How does that affect your decision making? How is that a part of your consideration!?

Don't go there. That is always the first place I go when making political decisions.

Baby's are baby's at birth. A fetus is little more than the white susbstance that I leave on the shower wall.

Pro-life stances may be noble, but in my opinion are unamerican.
shaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:17 PM   #118
nixxerRsixxer
Homewrecker
 
nixxerRsixxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: humanresources
Posts: 3,280
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via ICQ to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via AIM to nixxerRsixxer Send a message via Yahoo to nixxerRsixxer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
And if I deside that my nagging wife is too annoying to be around, can I just make her swim with the fishes... because its best for MY OWN situation? (Barb, that is your logic!)

Do you want that type of action legal in the country you live in?

If not.. how is abortion different? What qualifies abortion as less than murder?
i think the parallel comparison would be if your nagging wife was a parapalegic vegetable.. what do you think would be better for her? to kill her by removing life support or let her live on suffering?..
__________________
He had a steady job and watched what he spent.
He'd say I don't believe in payin' no goddamn rent.
I'll squirrel away every goddamn cent
and buy my own damn house in Kalamazoo.
nixxerRsixxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM   #119
SS
Such Majestic. Wow.
 
SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-12-05
Location: Bimini, Bahamas
Posts: 11,414
iTrader: (13)
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
the value of life is dependent (conditional) on external variables.
For the religious ones in here.. remember one thing... You are not the one who will lay judgement down so get off the high horse and relax.

Deep breath. Chill. Calm down.

In order to actually debate an issue effectively you have to look at the situation from both sides. I'm not jumping into this post to try and convince anyone of anything but just hear me out.

I am one of the people that supports abortion in the extreme circumstances. I think people who get an abortion as a form of birth control are pathetic, sorry excuses for a human being. When it comes to an extreme circumstance I mean the rape of an innocent woman and the birthing of the child putting her in serious jeopardy of life threatening consequences. Now calm down guys. I know you're getting riled up AMC but just relax. Think about the other perspective for a minute.

What would you do if some guy murdered your wife? You'd rip that fucker in half and shit on his kidneys. Of course you would.... we all would.

What if your wife is raped and when it comes time to give birth there are extremely serious complications that put her at high risk of dying and the only way to save her life is to abort.

Will you really aid that rapist in killing your wife? Will you let that piece of shit kill her?

Don't say you would. No man would.
__________________
-Jeremy

AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2006, 04:22 PM   #120
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Don't go there. That is always the first place I go when making political decisions.

Baby's are baby's at birth. A fetus is little more than the white susbstance that I leave on the shower wall.

Pro-life stances may be noble, but in my opinion are unamerican.
Ok.. so you believe that the founding fathers implied that abortion is a freedom? Woudl you care to back that up?

Sorry to hear that you can't get any, bummer dude. And hopefully if you become a Daddy one day, you may wise up.

I realize that you are only clownin', but there is a point where you should bow out if you have no bullets, you're only making yourself look like ... nevermind.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:47 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.37064 seconds with 50 queries