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Old November 6th, 2006, 06:49 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by artistic_gore View Post
1. Who am I and who are you to tell people what is or isn't the right thing to do?

2. But how does a woman choosing to have an abortion affect the lives of any of the members on this board?
1. Who are you to tell me that kiling my wife is wrong? If we, as a society, have no moral law, then utter chaos will reign. I do not want MURDER as an acceptible practice in the soceity I live in. Neither do you. This debate is centered on the issue of where life begins, as Bruce noted in the opening post. Any humane and logical person knows that life exists IN the womb, not just outside of it. You would have to be a total idiot to think otherwise. It is painfully obvious that killing a baby in the womb is MURDER and it should be punnishable by law, the same way that any other form of murder is. You are a citizen of this country with the right to vote. Thats what gives you the right to tell people what to do, you tell with your vote, the same way the opposite agenda does. This is a matter of moral law, and it needs to be represented by the people. I hope that people wake up and realize the terrible disconnect they have with hating one murder, and loving the other. Murdering innocent people should never be legal. It is an entire different debate on killing the guilty.

2. You are asking the wrong question. The right question is this: How does a mother's choice affect the life of the child inside her? The answer is that she either brutally murders it or it gives it its right to live. The child is an innocent party that did not ask to be mixed into the of the mother's personal life. The child does not deserve death for ANY reason. The mother may have an agenda or desire, but that does NOT mean that the child should receive the punishment for someone else's wrong doing. That is unjust and wrong, and we all know it.

IMO, if a person has to die when a woman gets pregnant, let it be the one who has guilt, not the innocent. And for you "men" out there who keep quiet because this is a "ladie's issue", you should be ashamed of yourselves. Stand up for the innocent and protect them. I hope our nation wises up, abortion is so disgusting.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 06:55 PM   #62
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Let's be clear on 1 thing. If you bring the "Christian" God into this. The decision will always be one sided. Very clear wording in the Bible regarding life and when it begins.
Let's be clear on one thing. I never said if I was "christian" or not. My relationship with God is between me and him. and if you're a believer and if/when the 'judgement' day comes, then let God cast his judgement upon me. Not you.

And it's not like i'm a mean/ bad person. I love children and all I've ever wanted to be is a Mom since I was little. I just think it's a personal choice a woman should have.


Someone posted something about should a mother kill her children at 6 yrs old if she doesn't want them to suffer. Interesting concept- Have you ever read Toni Morrison's Beloved? Basically- a runaway slave is about to be caught. To protect her born child from the horrors of slavery, she kills her; believing that death was better than having to live as a slave. interesting act out of love isn't it?

No one is perfect, choices are hard. It's life. We may not make the best choices all the time, but all we can do is try.

(done stirring the pot for now)

Last edited by Barb; November 6th, 2006 at 06:57 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #63
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Old November 6th, 2006, 07:25 PM   #64
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1. Who are you to tell me that kiling my wife is wrong? If we, as a society, have no moral law, then utter chaos will reign. I do not want MURDER as an acceptible practice in the soceity I live in. Neither do you. This debate is centered on the issue of where life begins, as Bruce noted in the opening post. Any humane and logical person knows that life exists IN the womb, not just outside of it. You would have to be a total idiot to think otherwise. It is painfully obvious that killing a baby in the womb is MURDER and it should be punnishable by law, the same way that any other form of murder is. You are a citizen of this country with the right to vote. Thats what gives you the right to tell people what to do, you tell with your vote, the same way the opposite agenda does. This is a matter of moral law, and it needs to be represented by the people. I hope that people wake up and realize the terrible disconnect they have with hating one murder, and loving the other. Murdering innocent people should never be legal. It is an entire different debate on killing the guilty.

2. You are asking the wrong question. The right question is this: How does a mother's choice affect the life of the child inside her? The answer is that she either brutally murders it or it gives it its right to live. The child is an innocent party that did not ask to be mixed into the of the mother's personal life. The child does not deserve death for ANY reason. The mother may have an agenda or desire, but that does NOT mean that the child should receive the punishment for someone else's wrong doing. That is unjust and wrong, and we all know it.

IMO, if a person has to die when a woman gets pregnant, let it be the one who has guilt, not the innocent. And for you "men" out there who keep quiet because this is a "ladie's issue", you should be ashamed of yourselves. Stand up for the innocent and protect them. I hope our nation wises up, abortion is so disgusting.
They will come back with their logic that it's a "fetus" and dehumanize the baby which leads them away from quilt.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 07:26 PM   #65
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Miniature flags? I don't get it.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 07:27 PM   #66
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They will come back with their logic that it's a "fetus" and dehumanize the baby which leads them away from quilt.
x2...i know what you mean. :tonka: Because they use there "blanket" logic.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 08:28 PM   #67
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Have you ever read Toni Morrison's Beloved? Basically- a runaway slave is about to be caught. To protect her born child from the horrors of slavery, she kills her; believing that death was better than having to live as a slave. interesting act out of love isn't it?

No one is perfect, choices are hard. It's life. We may not make the best choices all the time, but all we can do is try.

(done stirring the pot for now)
I have not read that book, but that logic is very consistent with many of the arguments FOR abortion or "choice". I personally think slavery sucked, but some great americans suffered through it and their offspring are alive today to carry on. If that were an actual event (which it may have been based on) then the woman in question commited a crime by killing her child. The obvious difference is that the law does not currently recognize the same action to an unborn child as a crime.......which I argue it should because the life that was taken from either children is final and can never be given back.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 09:24 PM   #68
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So the real question is not whether killing babies is right or wrong, it’s when does it become a baby? When does life begin?
I was going to quote this part right away but decided to wait. I think that's the single biggest issue people have regarding abortion, and this tread proves that. It seems reasonable to say pro-lifers believe its "a baby" from the moment of conception, and the pro-choice crowd is somewhere along the opposite end of that idea.

From there on out it's like the intelligent design vs. evolution theory debate...people just spouting a load of BS about their beliefs and why they're right when in reality there's that big unknown (at least unknown to me).

So the real question is not whether killing babies is right or wrong, it’s when does it become a baby? When does life begin?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 09:28 PM   #69
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They will come back with their logic that it's a "fetus" and dehumanize the baby which leads them away from quilt.
I like to use the phrase flesh sack, that even less baby sounding.

Thats what really pisses me off. Someone can easily change a term or phrase to relive themselves of mounting guilt.

I for one refuse to have the blood of murdered babies on my hands. I refuse to support the slaughter of the innocent.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 09:36 PM   #70
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So the real question is not whether killing babies is right or wrong, it’s when does it become a baby? When does life begin?
I agree. So I will make the following arguement. If.......the unborn fetus is not a baby / is not alive / does not have a human entity, then............legally I should be able to walk up to any pregnant woman and whack her in the gut let's say 30 times with a baseball bat and the worse punishment I should get is assault ON THE WOMAN, even if (and most likely it would) it kills the fetus. In fact, the impact on the unborn child should not even enter the court of law during the deliberation of my actions because after all it was not yet alive.

Seems fair, right?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 09:49 PM   #71
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I am pro choice (within a small amount of time from conception)...however i would never choose for one of my own to be aborted

Biggest fault I see with 'pro life' and saying when a sperm and an egg are a 'life' it is barely anything but a few strands of dna...yet many of these people will stomp on spiders, kill mice/rats, etc on small things like that, which are far more 'alive' than a mixed sperm and egg hardly transformed. Then, i've been asked 'how can you compare humans to anything else?!'...i see it as if someone is 'pro life', you shouldnt be able to pick and choose. Interesting how a few strands of DNA can be something more deserving of 'life' than something else fully alive and carrying its weight, regardless of the species

amc78cj7:
yea i would agree it should just be assault on her, as traumatic as it may be, as long as it was withing a given amount of time of her becoming pregnant (maybe three months max? i cant remember when it really starts becoming 'something')

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Old November 6th, 2006, 09:54 PM   #72
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kinda along the same lines as SkyPunk....

How do the people for prolife feel about using the Pill / diff birth control methods?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:02 PM   #73
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I am pro choice (within a small amount of time from conception)...however i would never choose for one of my own to be aborted

Biggest fault I see with 'pro life' and saying when a sperm and an egg are a 'life' it is barely anything but a few strands of dna...yet many of these people will stomp on spiders, kill mice/rats, etc on small things like that, which are far more 'alive' than a mixed sperm and egg hardly transformed. Then, i've been asked 'how can you compare humans to anything else?!'...i see it as if someone is 'pro life', you shouldnt be able to pick and choose. Interesting how a few strands of DNA can be something more deserving of 'life' than something else fully alive and carrying its weight, regardless of the species
I don't see making a distinction between humans life and other animals as "picking and choosing". Using that logic if you think it's OK to kill a cow and eat it you must think it's OK to kill your neighbor and eat him.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:02 PM   #74
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kinda along the same lines as SkyPunk....

How do the people for prolife feel about using the Pill / diff birth control methods?
Well, I am pro-HUMAN life. But I like my venison as cute as they look walking under my treestand. Your arguement reminds me of that commercial for medicated kleenex tissues where the monk sneezes and kills a million bacteria then feels regret. I think there is a huge separation between a human baby and other "living" creatures.

Birth control such as the pill and condoms prevent conception. There is a lot of debate about the "morning after pill" if that is what you are referring to Barb, based exactly on your train of thought.

Personally I just pull out. Condoms ruin the experience. It's only cost me two kids so far (as far as I know).

BTW, I know a lot of people argue about circumstances that lead to abortion, and you know I don't agree that there is ANY circumstance that justifies the cost. My wife personally got pregnant when we both had not finished college, had no jobs and weren't married. Very scary. And as I posted above 10 years later the docs told us our unborn daughter might be mentally impaired. Also very scary. But we have survived. I know there are a lot worse scenerios that women and couples face, but I just want you all to know that I do understand that life if not always full of easy situations. But death should not be a decision one can make.

Coincidentally, I can't figure out why a woman can legally "choose" to end the life inside her because it is an extension of her own body, but it is illegal to commit suicide. WTF?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:18 PM   #75
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I agree. So I will make the following arguement. If.......the unborn fetus is not a baby / is not alive / does not have a human entity, then............legally I should be able to walk up to any pregnant woman and whack her in the gut let's say 30 times with a baseball bat and the worse punishment I should get is assault ON THE WOMAN, even if (and most likely it would) it kills the fetus. In fact, the impact on the unborn child should not even enter the court of law during the deliberation of my actions because after all it was not yet alive.

Seems fair, right?

This is an important point because it shows that while the child remains unborn, it still has inherent value and it is alive, with rights to life.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:19 PM   #76
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Birth control such as the pill and condoms prevent conception. There is a lot of debate about the "morning after pill" if that is what you are referring to Barb, based exactly on your train of thought.
Actually the pill does allow conception, the added hormones make an unfavorable condition to nourish the zygote. So I guess that millions of woman are murdering their babies every month.

BTW I am definatly pro-choice. You people have no right to tell me what to do with my body.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:25 PM   #77
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Actually the pill does allow conception, the added hormones make an unfavorable condition to nourish the zygote. So I guess that millions of woman are murdering their babies every month.

BTW I am definatly pro-choice. You people have no right to tell me what to do with my body.
Suicide is illegal, right?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:31 PM   #78
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I am pro choice (within a small amount of time from conception)...however i would never choose for one of my own to be aborted

Biggest fault I see with 'pro life' and saying when a sperm and an egg are a 'life' it is barely anything but a few strands of dna.

i cant remember when it really starts becoming 'something'

How many weeks pregnant is acceptable to you to kill the child?

I prefer to call those dna strands flesh sacks, lets be politically correct ok?

It is something at conception, its own unique dna.

When a woman can FIRST determine that she is pregant, she is between 4-5 weeks. If she is not watching her cycle, or has an irregular period, she may not know she is pregnant for a few more weeks. And if she is considering an abortion, add in a week time for her consideration. We are now at 9-10 weeks of development altogether. At this stage in development, the child has a normal body with a head, arms, legs, fingers, active heartbeat, internal organs, etc. Here is a picture of my daughter Reece at exactly 10 weeks of development (this is a side profile of her, head to the far right, feet to the far left, and she is kinda laying back, lounging):



What people don't realize with the ultrasound pics is that this is a still photo. When the ultrasound tech does this in real time, you see real time movement. Reece was moving around like crazy at only 10 weeks development! I got to see her move her tiny arms and legs, bouncing around that tiny womb. You could not even tell at all yet that my wife was pregnant, not even a little bit, yet all that was going on. Again, this is all at the stage when most women are just considering if they want to carry the baby or exterminate it. Yet it has arms, fingers, an active heartbeat, ALL THAT STUFF.

Now I have this beautiful four month old baby, she is such a wonderful creation. She had her hands up during almost all her ultrasound pics, and even right now as she sleeps in her crib, her hands are up.

I am telling you the truth, they are not just little intruders that are underdeveloped. They are REAL babies, they are simply maturing to live in the outside world.



So there she is, my baby Reece at 10 weeks development, what do you think? Just a strand of dna... or more????

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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:32 PM   #79
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Suicide is illegal, right?
Doesn't matter if suicide is illegal or not, you are not really gonna care if you are dead.
I am also for assisted suicide in cases of terminal illnesses, why the hell should people suffer for a few extra weeks/months/years. I wouldn't want to live in a vegetative state or in constant agony.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 10:49 PM   #80
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Doesn't matter if suicide is illegal or not, you are not really gonna care if you are dead.
I am also for assisted suicide in cases of terminal illnesses, why the hell should people suffer for a few extra weeks/months/years. I wouldn't want to live in a vegetative state or in constant agony.

That brings me back to my elderly statement of how we should just off them since they are such a burden on society. They are not in agony or in a vegetative state but do they have the right to live even if they can not contribute to society economically which leads to governement assistance such as Medicare/caid??

To me that seems an aweful like WIC and if we aborted all babies then we wouldn't have to fund WIC programs since just people with the means to support children wild have babies.
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