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Old November 6th, 2006, 12:28 PM   #41
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I'm pro-choice. I don't think that the gov't or you have the right to say what is 'best' for me or my potential child.
I've always wondered, does the government have the right to persecute someone who kills and innocent person? Does the government have the right to persecute someone who kills a 1 hour old baby, a 1 year old baby, a 10 year old baby?

What if a family were living in poverty, there is hardly enough food to survive and they live in a cardboard box so they really have no protection from the elements. The mother of the unborn child says "I really don't think it's fair to make a child live in these conditions", so WHAM, it's life is ended with a spear and a vacuum. Now imagine the same conditions, but the baby is 6 months old, freezing and starving. The mother out of compasion and knowing what is "best for me or my potential child" stabs the baby and vacums up the mess. What's the difference? Should one be prosecuted differently than the other? Is there a real difference between the two situations?

And consider (although I know many of you may not have access to this sort of information), that I have high resolution ultrasound of my recent baby, taken as a fetus at 3 months pregnancy looking very much like a baby and in fact sucking her thumb.

Discuss.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 12:38 PM   #42
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It's because they both force you to place value on a human life. Not an easy task.

More on topic, does the babies life hold more value than it's mothers life? What if you had to choose between the mother or the baby?
Have you ever heard of the uncertainty principle. That is, there can never be 100% probability that something will occur. Now, you say "choose between the mother or the baby", but really there are several potential outcomes:

1) (your statement) you perform the abortion and the mother survives
2) you don't perform the abortion and the mother dies
3) you perform the abortion and the mother still dies from complications (either immediately or shortly after).
4) you don't perform the the abortion and the mother and baby survives.

In fact, current legislation is being argued that late-term abortion may prevent a mother from dying due to complications (almost the same argument you're making), but it has not made it through due to lack of evidence that it decreases complications and/or increases survival.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 12:57 PM   #43
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I say we kill all them worthless unborn babies. They ain't real babies anyway, they just sacks of flesh, like a cancer. I mean, think about it, they are intruders, they don't belong in wombs anyhow, so they need to be scraped into pieces.

In terms of killing, its my business if I want to kill my wife or child, not the government. If I'm in a bad mood next time my wife talks back or my baby cries, BAM. My family, my choice.

I donno, just my .02

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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:05 PM   #44
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I say we kill all them worthless unborn babies. They ain't real babies anyway, they just sacks of flesh, like a cancer. I mean, think about it, they are intruders, they don't belong in wombs anyhow, so they need to be scraped into pieces.

I donno, just my .02
Couldn't be more true. I say we just appoint a communist dicatator!

After all, this is what they do in China. After one baby, its off to the abortion clinic for you if you have another.

Who needs natural law anyway? Kant's moral philosophy is B.S.! Murder is OK...right? Who are you to tell me I'm wrong?

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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:07 PM   #45
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Have you ever heard of the uncertainty principle. That is, there can never be 100% probability that something will occur. Now, you say "choose between the mother or the baby", but really there are several potential outcomes:

1) (your statement) you perform the abortion and the mother survives
2) you don't perform the abortion and the mother dies
3) you perform the abortion and the mother still dies from complications (either immediately or shortly after).
4) you don't perform the the abortion and the mother and baby survives.

In fact, current legislation is being argued that late-term abortion may prevent a mother from dying due to complications (almost the same argument you're making), but it has not made it through due to lack of evidence that it decreases complications and/or increases survival.

Yes, nothing is ever certain, that is why the choice should be left to the individual. This was my point.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:24 PM   #46
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Murder is OK...right? Who are you to tell me I'm wrong?
Since all truth is relative, I cannot tell you that you are wrong, you must be right, and murder must be ok for you. I can't argue with such a pure logic, carry on I guess.

Side note: I think we can eliminate the black population via abortion, our strategy can be to put all the abortion clinics in poor urban areas and get into cahoots with planned parenthood. I think if we try hard enough, we can eliminate the black vote, but we gotta make abortions more cost effective first. Any help here?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:30 PM   #47
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I say we kill all them worthless unborn babies. They ain't real babies anyway, they just sacks of flesh, like a cancer. I mean, think about it, they are intruders, they don't belong in wombs anyhow, so they need to be scraped into pieces.

In terms of killing, its my business if I want to kill my wife or child, not the government. Nobody but me has the right to say what i should or shoudl nto do with MY family. Next time my wife talks back or my baby cries, BAM. My family, my choice.

I donno, just my .02
Sigh, See I knew I'd have to do it....

Simply,
A has no right to tell B how to live as long as A's life isn't affected by B.

Sorry Dave you fail the a/b test. You(b) affected your family(a) by killing them, so you get the chair.

For further explaination see....

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...t=24908&page=3

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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:36 PM   #48
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Side note: I think we can eliminate the black population via abortion, our strategy can be to put all the abortion clinics in poor urban areas and get into cahoots with planned parenthood. I think if we try hard enough, we can eliminate the black vote, but we gotta make abortions more cost effective first. Any help here?
Here you go Dave.

IF YOU ARE PRO-CHOICE, YOU SHOULD REALLY LOOK UP THE HISTORY. DO YOUR OWN GOOGLE SEARCH: The abortion movement was propelled largely by Planned Parenthood. The founder of Planned Parenthood is Margaret Sanger, a widely known speaker on racial sterilization and genocide.

Attached is a link with some references:

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

http://www.eadshome.com/MargaretSanger.htm

For those who are too lazy to click, here are some quotes written by Margaret Sanger:

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race
(Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."
Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.

"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock."
Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review.

"Eugenics is … the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems.
Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda." Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," The Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

"The undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind."
Margaret Sanger, quoted in Charles Valenza. "Was Margaret Sanger a Racist?" Family Planning Perspectives, January-February 1985, page 44.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:46 PM   #49
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Sigh, See I knew I'd have to do it....

Simply,
A has no right to tell B how to live as long as A's life isn't affected by B.

Sorry Dave you fail the a/b test. You(a) affected your family(b) by killing them, so you get the chair.
My family has no real value, they are just annoying females, they inconvenience my life. All the wife does is nag, and all the kid does is cry, and I don't need it. They gotta go, they are not worthy of life. I could care less if they do or do not have a right to live, all I know is that they incoveneince me and I don't want them around, so I will kill them.

And in terms of a baby in the womb, surely it is not affected by the mother when it gets scraped into pieces ("affected". would need to be something greater than death). So that must be ok because A has not affected B. Thanks for your flawless logic displayed so brilliantly.

p.s. kill em all. its not like they have a unique DNA or heart beats or anything, nor do they have any potential, lets throw out the flesh sack with its amniotic bathwater.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 01:50 PM   #50
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Here you go Dave.

IF YOU ARE PRO-CHOICE, YOU SHOULD REALLY LOOK UP THE HISTORY. DO YOUR OWN GOOGLE SEARCH: The abortion movement was propelled largely by Planned Parenthood. The founder of Planned Parenthood is Margaret Sanger, a widely known speaker on racial sterilization and genocide.

Attached is a link with some references:

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm
Did you mean to link http://www.blackgenocide.org/ as well?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 02:36 PM   #51
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All I have to say on this is that if it weren't for abortion I probably would not be alive today. My mother had an abortion after the doctor thought she would die if she carried the baby full term. After that she had two failed pregnancies and then she had my sister followed by me. I don't know that I'm that great of an addition to the human race but this chain of events has definately made me pro-choice. Oh and while I do not believe in god I do believe that if there is a god he is pro abortion seeing as he offed so many babies and young children in the bible. And for those of you who say that that was done by nuts who used god as an excuse to carry out there will I retort that you are using god to force your will on others. God said it and I believe it so it must be true for every one. If that made a bit of sense...
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Old November 6th, 2006, 02:44 PM   #52
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All I have to say on this is that if it weren't for abortion I probably would not be alive today. My mother had an abortion after the doctor thought she would die if she carried the baby full term. After that she had two failed pregnancies and then she had my sister followed by me. I don't know that I'm that great of an addition to the human race but this chain of events has definately made me pro-choice. Oh and while I do not believe in god I do believe that if there is a god he is pro abortion seeing as he offed so many babies and young children in the bible. And for those of you who say that that was done by nuts who used god as an excuse to carry out there will I retort that you are using god to force your will on others. God said it and I believe it so it must be true for every one. If that made a bit of sense...
Not quite sure what you're saying here, but I think you're making a strong arguement against abortion when you really think about it! Your mom didn't commit abortion with you, so therefore you are here with us!

Anyone who is alive should not thank abortion for being alive.

Margaret Sanger sounds an awful lot like a nazi to me,

And I can see why you don't believe in God. It seems like you have no clear understanding of who he is.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 02:49 PM   #53
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All I have to say on this is that if it weren't for abortion I probably would not be alive today. My mother had an abortion after the doctor thought she would die if she carried the baby full term. After that she had two failed pregnancies and then she had my sister followed by me. I don't know that I'm that great of an addition to the human race but this chain of events has definately made me pro-choice. Oh and while I do not believe in god I do believe that if there is a god he is pro abortion seeing as he offed so many babies and young children in the bible. And for those of you who say that that was done by nuts who used god as an excuse to carry out there will I retort that you are using god to force your will on others. God said it and I believe it so it must be true for every one. If that made a bit of sense...
Where to start.

1) I am sorry for your mothers loss, on several occasions. The fact that she had two children post-abortion is a maricle in itself as it often damages the reproductive system (maybe why you don't have two other syblings).

2) How certain are you that your mother would have died without the first abortion? Just curious.

3) Some religions do believe in killing babies. Christianity is not one of them so I cannot use that as an argument. I haven't yet brought up religion. The fact is, murdering an innocent baby is wrong beyond religion. We are not a pack of wild animals with no alternative to raising offspring for survival (at least not to my knowledge).
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Old November 6th, 2006, 03:01 PM   #54
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My family has no real value, they are just annoying females, they inconvenience my life. All the wife does is nag, and all the kid does is cry, and I don't need it. They gotta go, they are not worthy of life. I could care less if they do or do not have a right to live, all I know is that they incoveneince me and I don't want them around, so I will kill them.

And in terms of a baby in the womb, surely it is not affected by the mother when it gets scraped into pieces ("affected". would need to be something greater than death). So that must be ok because A has not affected B. Thanks for your flawless logic displayed so brilliantly.

p.s. kill em all. its not like they have a unique DNA or heart beats or anything, nor do they have any potential, lets throw out the flesh sack with its amniotic bathwater.
Disturbing and tic but not helpful to the discussion.

Actually the logic isn't mine, although I agree with it.

I Applied it to abortion like this..... you(A) have no right to tell any woman(B) which choice to make because you(A) aren't affected by the woman's(B's) decision.

Applying a/b logic to the unborn assumes facts not in evidence, i.e. the baby has all the rights the born do. You probably think this is true, you might be right. Others disagree, maybe they are right. Who's to decide?

Hypothetically(because only a woman can decide) I know what I would choose, and I bet you'd be surprised. The only difference I think we have, is that I want others to make their own decision based on their own beliefs. Would you allow them the same freedom?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 03:01 PM   #55
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No I really have no clue who god is. The more books I read including religious texts the more out of focus the idea of god becomes to me but that is for a different thread. I don't know how close to death my mother was when she had her abortion. I know that she was 17 or 18, 5 foot nothing and never gained a pound during any of her 5 pregnancies due to illness. I also know that my wifes doctor brought up abortion as an option when she lost 14 pounds in I think the 20th week of pregnancy and a total of over 40lbs but we endured and my son is here today.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 04:21 PM   #56
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I also know that my wifes doctor brought up abortion as an option when she lost 14 pounds in I think the 20th week of pregnancy and a total of over 40lbs but we endured and my son is here today.
A hypothetical based on the information you have presented. Suppose you and your wife had decided to abort because of the health risk of loosing over 40lbs. Then she had two miscarriages and years later had a different son who came onto some off-road board and testified that had his brother not been aborted his mother would have died and he would not be here today...........Kinda makes you wonder doesn't it. One thing is certain though. Your current son is a blessing to you.

On a related topic, when my wife was pregnant for our last child the doctors informed us at 3 months that the baby had a cyst on her head. They informed us that cyst can be symptomatic of a child that is mentally challenged and that we might consider abortion. Mind you, at this 3 month ultrasound we could see the full body and head of the baby as well as her thumb in her mouth and moving her feet/legs around. What would you do?
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Well, abortion should not have been an option even if it meant a very difficult life ahead of us. As it turns out, the cyst was nothing, our daughter is beautifu and in fact very healthy and intelligent. Because ultrasound has such high resolution now they are picking up abnormalities that they don't know how to interpret (5 years ago they would not have even detected this in most ultrasounds so the statistics were skewed).

So here are two examples of physicians suggesting abortion because of health risks to either the mother and/or child. Both cases could have ended with aborted kids; however both ended up with healthy mothers and children. Based on Pro-choice it would be fine if both your son and my daughter were killed, even though the reported "health risks" turned out to be nothing.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 05:22 PM   #57
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Right you chose to have the baby regardless of the doctors recommendation as did we. So why shouldn't another person be able to weigh there options and decide that there health or the risk of having an unhealthy baby aren't things they are willing to gamble on and have an abortion? I don't advocate for abortion as birth control but who am I and who are you to tell people what is or isn't the right thing to do? In things like the helmet law and the seatbelt law where voters are directing the decisions other people make you can make the argument that it affects the lives of the voters by driving up the cost of insurance due to these peoples decisions to not wear there helmet/seatbelt. But how does a woman choosing to have an abortion affect the lives of any of the members on this board?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 05:47 PM   #58
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Right you chose to have the baby regardless of the doctors recommendation as did we. So why shouldn't another person be able to weigh there options and decide that there health or the risk of having an unhealthy baby aren't things they are willing to gamble on and have an abortion?
Because in both our examples (and maybe even your mother's first example) the information we were given was wrong. It wasn't "you have 100% chance of dying" it was "you may have complications". The truth is, in all these examples there was no more risk (obviously from the outcome) than any associated risk with pregnancy. So why should there be a choice to end a life if the outcome is uncertain? If you had chose to end the life, your wife would have had no better survival rate but the baby would be dead.

Seriously, did you see the 3 month ultrasound? If so, do you really question whether your son was alive then or not? If alive, then should you wife have had the say to kill him even though it did not protect her? If so, then why don't cops have the right to kill someone in the street even if it's not necessary for survival? Where's the logic?
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Old November 6th, 2006, 06:15 PM   #59
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Yes I saw the three month ultrasound and all of the ultrasounds we got while spending time in the ER and the 3-D Ultrasound. If my wife wasn't a normally healthy person we may have decided to go the other way.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 06:43 PM   #60
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But how does a woman choosing to have an abortion affect the lives of any of the members on this board?
It doesn't...it affects the life of the baby.
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