Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 9th, 2006, 06:32 PM   #181
Buggy_Tim
(513) 891-8372
 
Buggy_Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Sault Sainte Marie
Posts: 11,699
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
And many have repeatedly said that LIFE is NOT life unless it could live on it's own... it's just a jumble of cells. But as pro-life you cannot accept that because the potential of life is good enough for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
But you also have been going at this like many of us consider a late term abortion (such as the age of muddypaws boy) right.
My son could not "live on his own" when born. Does that make him any less alive?
Buggy_Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #182
Buggy_Tim
(513) 891-8372
 
Buggy_Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Sault Sainte Marie
Posts: 11,699
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
don't you have kids that could use some kind of teaching?
Huh...you must have went to a strange high school. None of the high schools I have taught in offer classes at 1am.

Actually I was taking a break from working on a research paper for my second Masters Degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
Yes, I did some soul serching and am 100% Pro-Life
Too bad you don't appear to vote along those lines.
Buggy_Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 08:04 PM   #183
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,549
iTrader: (54)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
Actually I was taking a break from working on a research paper for my second Masters Degree..
I.E. Afraid of the real world and still don't make no money.

LOL.

Please tell me you aren't paying for a masters degree.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 08:42 PM   #184
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil View Post
Am I going to tell someone else what to do? As long as it's not inhumane, then no. I don't know where that line is, and my morals and religion would play a large part in setting that bar.

And I am REALLY sick of religious nut jobs flipping out about abortion and taking pictures of rotting dog carcases and still births and saying they are aborted babies. Go die.
You have to decide where that bar is, it can't be some forever mystery.
As far as I see, killing a human is the difinitive inhumane act.

I am sure that some pics floating out there are fakes, but there are also plenty of real deal ones. Do you think that all abortion pics are fakes?

So if abortion is not something you would do yourself, and you don't like it in general, how does that result in your decision to be pro-choice? It just does not seem to follow.

I used to be pro-choice because I did not think it fair to make such a large decision for someone else. But the problem was that I was ignoring the depth of tragedy that was occuring with abortion. To me, it is just so wrong to kill some kid who did not ask to be made, and has done nothing wrong. There is NO justice wit abortion.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 08:48 PM   #185
Buggy_Tim
(513) 891-8372
 
Buggy_Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Sault Sainte Marie
Posts: 11,699
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
I.E. Afraid of the real world and still don't make no money.

LOL.

Please tell me you aren't paying for a masters degree.
What do you mean afraid of the real world? I have been in the real world for years and years. I have to continue to take credits being a teacher. It's state law...I have to take classes for the rest of my life to keep my teaching certificate. The more education I have, the more money I make.
Buggy_Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 09:20 PM   #186
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,983
iTrader: (16)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
So if abortion is not something you would do yourself, and you don't like it in general, how does that result in your decision to be pro-choice? It just does not seem to follow.
Just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I think it should be illegal. I think smoking is wrong... it kills people, I don't think it should be outlawed.

If one is not religious, then killing something that THEY made may not seem like an issue to them. How can I make that decision for them?
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 10:30 PM   #187
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Well this thread has gone pretty much just like every abortion debate.

"Pro-lifers" yelling about "killing babys" but not wanting to acknowledge that outlawing abortion does nothing to help deal with the problem that made somone seek out an abortion in the first place, and not seeing that not all of those babys you're "saving" from abortion are going to live joyous happy lives in wonderful loving homes. That some, maybe many, will find themselves unwanted, unloved, and uncared for and may die worse deaths than if they had been aborted.

"Pro-choicers" saying that it's the womans right to do what they want til the babys ready to come out and not wanting to grant the baby any rights until it does.

And a smattering of people expressing moderate views and leaving.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 10:37 PM   #188
Buggy_Tim
(513) 891-8372
 
Buggy_Tim's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Sault Sainte Marie
Posts: 11,699
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Bruce, this pic sums you up. :tonka:

Buggy_Tim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 10:46 PM   #189
jeepfreak81
81 inches of fun
 
jeepfreak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Lennon, Mi
Posts: 12,149
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to jeepfreak81 Send a message via MSN to jeepfreak81 Send a message via Yahoo to jeepfreak81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
Dude, have you ever had a baby? They can't live on their own even after birth, they are 100% dependant, so your argument about self-sufficiency is void, holds no water.

By the time a woman can even KNOW she is pregnant, she is already 4-5 weeks pregnant. Doctors work off of a 40 week term because of how the mestral cycle works. But that is not the point, the point is that by the time a woman knows she is pregnant (a few days after she knows she missed her period), this child is already 4-5 WEEKS develped, it'snot just a lump of cells. Just a week or two later, it is already in normal human shape, with a central nervious system, limbs, heartbeat, internal organs; it has its own blood type, its own unique DNA, it has muscles and it moves about the womb. You got this vision in your head of a lump of cells under a miscroscopte, that is NOT reality!!

See some detailed devellopmental stuff here: http://abort73.com/HTML/I-A-2-prenatal.html
By the way, if you are truely brave, take a look at some of the photos in a different part of that website for a real reality check on abortion, i'm talking serious reality check.
I know exactly what a baby looks like at each week, I am an MFR and trained through EMT, not to mention the 2 or 3 Anatomy and Physiology classes I have had, if you want a really gruesome picture go to the Museum of Science an industry in Chicago, they have a wall of little baby corpses from each stage of development, real ones, it's pretty cool to look at, might actually show you what it looks like at each stage, some are even see through because they are not even developed until later in pregnancy. The CNS is Not developed fully no matter how you look at it either until later in development, please look some scientific studies up that are from a medical text book and not an internet site.

Once a baby is out of the womb it CAN live on its own, as it can be raised by any piece of society that wants it. When in the womb at 5 weeks, it's still a parasite or tumor as stated before, BTW a virus also has it's own unique strand of DNA, and as of now they are still not living, BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE A HOST.

Whether or not you have a baby is irrelevant, my opinion WILL NOT change, even discussed it with the g/f / future fiancee last night, just asked her if she was raped and became pregnant what she would do.... her answer was the same as mine... abort it, she does not want a rape baby, nor does she want that strand of DNA with the same possible chemical imbalances in the genetic pool. She said having it would be worse then the rape itself to her.


g/f came in here and saw me typing this, told me to add that a woman can know she is pregnant in as little as 2 weeks

Last edited by jeepfreak81; November 9th, 2006 at 10:51 PM.
jeepfreak81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 11:00 PM   #190
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
Right awn!

When it comes to voting, its all on, or all off, no gray area. It's a black and white issue when it comes to voting, because you can only darken one circle.

If you are not for abortion, you are aginst it. If you are not against it, you are for it. The only choice is to be 100% for or 100% against.
I know you feel that way, and it's because debates like this are dominated by people who feel the same as you that rarely does anything change.

Pro-lifers are affraid to agree that in some, rare, situations that abortion may be neccassary to save the life of the mother, for fear of that opening the door for everyone who wants one using that excuse.

Pro-choicer's are affraid to agree that some abortion are pretty much infantcide with the technicality that part of the baby was still in the mother, for fear of that opening the door for other procedures to be labeled as "infantcide" and outlawed.

I disagree about there being no middle ground. You are difinitaly at one extreem of the debate... not abortion ever. i guess the other extreem would be believing that every pregnent woman should have the right to abort right up to the moment she gives birth. The middle ground would be the people who think it should be allowed in some situations, like rape, incest, or to pretect the health of the mother, or that it should be allowed until some point in the pregnency.

It's just the people at the extreems that can't see the middle. For any extreem pro-lifer one abortion is to many, and for the extreem pro-choicer one denied abortion is to many.

I see this as part of the problem with the world today. The extreemists do all the talking. I think theres a huge "moderate majority" that just silently sits there but that if it spoke out it would support a reasonable compermise.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 11:01 PM   #191
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
Bruce, this pic sums you up. :tonka:



Thats what I love about being an "extreem moderate", I can work both sides of the agrument.

Last edited by brewmenn; November 9th, 2006 at 11:05 PM.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 12:26 AM   #192
Chiefwoohaw
Pokerob is my B*tch!
 
Chiefwoohaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,505
iTrader: (7)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post



Too bad you don't appear to vote along those lines.
I vote along the lines that help the most people, the working class, the poor and at this time unfourtaly abortion is something that the party I voted for agrees with but you can't win all battles.
Chiefwoohaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 08:12 AM   #193
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
I know exactly what a baby looks like at each week, I am an MFR and trained through EMT, not to mention the 2 or 3 Anatomy and Physiology classes I have had, if you want a really gruesome picture go to the Museum of Science an industry in Chicago, they have a wall of little baby corpses from each stage of development, real ones, it's pretty cool to look at, might actually show you what it looks like at each stage, some are even see through because they are not even developed until later in pregnancy.
I call BS. I finally found the ultrasound pics of my daughter. This was at 3 months which is still a legal stage to be aborted. Notice her full body laying on her back in the upper panels. Notice her face in the lower left panel. Notice her foot in the lower right panel.

__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:

Last edited by amc78cj7; November 10th, 2006 at 08:16 AM.
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 08:28 AM   #194
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Well this thread has gone pretty much just like every abortion debate.

"Pro-lifers" yelling about "killing babys" but not wanting to acknowledge that outlawing abortion does nothing to help deal with the problem that made somone seek out an abortion in the first place

Pro-lifers are affraid to agree that in some, rare, situations that abortion may be neccassary to save the life of the mother, for fear of that opening the door for everyone who wants one using that excuse.

This is why post #179 is important. It shows not only that less than 5% of abortions occur because of rape, incest and mother's health (which means pro-choicers arguing those points are willing to sacrifice 95 / 100 unborn babies just to address the <2% of rape and incest cases and the 3% of mother's health cases), but conversly demonstrates that 95% of the reasons for abortions are social conditions that could be addressed by the public and government to reduce the number of abortions.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 09:27 AM   #195
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil View Post
Just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I think it should be illegal. I think smoking is wrong... it kills people, I don't think it should be outlawed.

If one is not religious, then killing something that THEY made may not seem like an issue to them. How can I make that decision for them?
I understand what you are saying there, which was my previous battle.

You can make that decision because you are a voter in this country, the same way you can tell people whether ot not its legal to kill doves. I suppose you could choose not to vote on issues that are morally neutral to you. But the politicians in office hold certain views, and by voting for them, you support certain things.

To me, the difference between smoking and abortion is huge. When someone smokes, they know the risks, and they only serve to harm themselves, especially since most public places are receiving smoking bans. But with abortion, there is no defence for a child who has no choice. They are not harming themselves, someone else is harming them. I think that is a huge difference. The parasitic worthless non-baby flesh sacks get killed because of reasons outside of themselves, and that to me is not just, not fair, & wrong.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 09:35 AM   #196
jeepfreak81
81 inches of fun
 
jeepfreak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Lennon, Mi
Posts: 12,149
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to jeepfreak81 Send a message via MSN to jeepfreak81 Send a message via Yahoo to jeepfreak81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
I call BS. I finally found the ultrasound pics of my daughter. This was at 3 months which is still a legal stage to be aborted. Notice her full body laying on her back in the upper panels. Notice her face in the lower left panel. Notice her foot in the lower right panel.

Just go to the museum and look for it just because the shape is there does not mean the development/tissues etc are there
jeepfreak81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 09:53 AM   #197
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
"Pro-lifers" yelling about "killing babys" but not wanting to acknowledge that outlawing abortion does nothing to help deal with the problem that made somone seek out an abortion in the first place, and not seeing that not all of those babys you're "saving" from abortion are going to live joyous happy lives in wonderful loving homes. That some, maybe many, will find themselves unwanted, unloved, and uncared for and may die worse deaths than if they had been aborted.
Bruce, lets be fair. The question has not been posed for solutions for potentially unwanted babies. We can't seem to even get passed what makes a baby a baby. First things first!

I am not trying to live in a fantasy world like my counterparts, I know its gonna be a hard road no matter what, but i would rather it be a hard road with justice being served (picking the lesser of two evils). My focus currently is on abortion, in-and-of-itself. We can look at long term solutions next (thereby putting the cart behind the horse).
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 09:56 AM   #198
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
just because the shape is there does not mean the development/tissues etc are there
The "development" tissues ARE there, by definition since it is "in development" :miff:

Just because it does not have the completed form of an adult human does not mean it is not alive either. Newborns do not have fully developed skulls either, does that mean you can off them too? In fact, being a biochemist I am fully aware that there are many differences between adults and fetuses.......and newborns and adolescents. There are significant differences both in structure and gene and protein expression as well as hormonal regulation and metaobolism.

What you cannot see from the museum or the pics I attached is the movement of the fetus. As the ultrasound is a live video feed, you can definitely see her moving when these snapshot were taken.
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:

Last edited by amc78cj7; November 10th, 2006 at 10:20 AM.
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 10:34 AM   #199
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,683
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
1. go to the Museum of Science an industry in Chicago, they have a wall of little baby corpses from each stage of development, real ones, it's pretty cool to look at, might actually show you what it looks like at each stage, some are even see through because they are not even developed until later in pregnancy. The CNS is Not developed fully no matter how you look at it either until later in development, please look some scientific studies up that are from a medical text book and not an internet site.

2. Once a baby is out of the womb it CAN live on its own

3. When in the womb at 5 weeks, it's still a parasite or tumor as stated before, BTW a virus also has it's own unique strand of DNA, and as of now they are still not living, BECAUSE THEY REQUIRE A HOST.

4. She said having it would be worse then the rape itself to her.

5. g/f came in here and saw me typing this, told me to add that a woman can know she is pregnant in as little as 2 weeks
1. Some would argue that your CNS is not fully develloped either . My point is not that the kidney is 80% developed, my point is that it HAS kidneys, it HAS a heart with a heartbeat, etc. It is not just a lump of miscelaneous cells, it is a small human. And humans have rights.

2. Please don't embarass yourself like this again, stop it.

3. I will agree that a developing baby does require a host for a period of time to remain alive, shoot, oxygen and food come through the umbillical cord. But your self-sufficiency argument holds no water, because even if its born pre-term, or even full term, it still needs 100% care, not like other mammals who can walk, eat, and so on, seconds after birth. While some abortions do take place at 5 weeks development (which is the first chance a woman knows she is pregnant), MANY happen after that, majority around the time of the pic I posted of my daughter at almost 10 weeks.

4. Can you have her share more about this? I am curious why it would be easier to kill the baby than to adopt it out. I realize the nature of pregnancy & childbirth, but I want to know how it is less disturbing to abort instead of to adopt. Wouldn't it be easier on the conscience to put the child up for adoption the child, relieving her of any possible wrong doing?

5. Like I tried to explain earlier, they count weeks based on a 4 week menstral cycle. So if a woman ovulates and becomes pregnant, and takes a test 2-3 weeks later, it may show positive that soon (althought many times it shows faint lines, and needs retesting a few days later for confimration), but fetal development counts from the first day of her last menstral period (known among medical people as the "LMP"). So when a baby is technically only 2 weeks in existance, it will be on development charts as 4 weeks developed. Does this make sense? (translated, the baby is more developed at any stage than you previously thought it was).
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 12:24 PM   #200
Miffy
Senior Member
 
Miffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: My home
Posts: 5,826
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to Miffy
Default

how about this:

any woman getting one has to have her tubs tied also so there are no more mistakes being made? If you can give up one child then you should not have more???????












that should stir the pot some
Miffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.30757 seconds with 50 queries