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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:51 PM   #1
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Default The great abortion debate.

Since I keep seeing the subject come up in other threads I figured it must be something people want to talk about. So rather that littering every other thread with this subject I think it's time we through off the gloves and fight it out here.

So without further ado I give you "The Great Abortion Debate..."

My views on the subject will follow shortly...
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:52 PM   #2
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First Iíd like to dispel the notion that itís a matter of religion. The pro-life people are usually religious and often start quoting bible verses (thou shalt not kill) and calling people ďbaby killersĒ whenever the subject comes up, but any decent, moral person has to agree that it would be wrong to kill a new born baby. Even if neither parent wants the baby it would be wrong to kill it after its born, even if itís conception was the result of rape or incest it would be wrong to kill it after itís born, even if itís existence somehow put itís motherís life in jeopardy it would be wrong to kill it after itĎs born, even if it had some disease or defect that made it unlikely that it would grow up normally it would be wrong to kill it after itís born, and Iím sure that even Michael J. Fox would agree that if you found a way to cure Parkinson's or some other disease but that it required the killing of a new born baby that it would be wrong to do so. I canít think of any situation where it would be morally OK to kill a new born baby. I donít care what religion you follow, or whether you follow one, you have to agree that killing a new born baby is wrong.

So the real question is not whether killing babies is right or wrong, itís when does it become a baby? When does life begin? Or the way I like to think of it, when does it become a member of the human race and start being entitled to the same rights as the rest of us to ďlife, liberty and the pursuit of happinessĒ. I donít see that as a religious question at all but rather a science, philosophy, and legal question. If you ask my dad, a very religious man, why he thinks the supreme court erred in itís decision on Roe vs. Wade he probably won't quote the bible but rather the United Stateís constitution, saying that he believes that an unborn baby should have the same rights as the rest of us.

So when does life begin? It would seem that once the sperm meets egg, they combine, and a unique DNA strand is formed, and that from that point on given the normal progression, and with minimal intervention from outside sources a baby will form it seems logical to say that life begins at conception. Birth is just another step along the a process that began 9 months earlier. That would pretty much rule out all abortions. If a woman said ďI should have the right to control what happen to my bodyĒ youíd have to remind them that the baby growing inside them is not ďtheir bodyĒ but rather itís own body with itís own right to life.

In my prefect world there would be no abortion. But that same perfect world would have no unwanted pregnancies, no rape or incest, no disease. We donít live in that world, we live in this one.

I wish it was as easy as just saying ďOK, no more abortionsĒ. Itís not. To the pro-life people abortion is a problem, but to a unwed teenage girl whoís pregnant, the pregnancy is the problem, the abortion is a potential solution. If you want to take that away you need to offer alternatives. I know some exist, but I think they need to be made more readily available. I fear that if you donít come up with some way to help them youíll just see a tic rise in women being maimed or killed in ďback alleyĒ abortions, in baby being born in bathrooms and alleys and left abandon in trash cans and dumpsters, in women getting beaten in attempts to induce miscarriages, and in children getting neglected and abused by parents that didnít want them in the first place. I know that itís usually their fault that they got pregnant, but do you really think itís right make the baby suffer for the parents failings? Also, thereís no way Iím going to looking into the face of a women that was just raped and say ďsorry about your luck, I guess youíll just have to suffer through these next 9 monthsĒ. And unlike some conservative talk show hosts I do realize that sometimes itís is a matter of life or death for the mother. Those situation should be decided upon by that women (and whoever she may choose to discuss it with) and her doctor.

So in summery, I would like to see abortion done away with as much as possible, but I think we need to approach it by finding ways to help eliminate the need for abortion (like increased education about and availability of birth control), and when that doesnít work or is not possible to make other options more available. I see just making abortion illegal as just causing more problems.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 11:15 PM   #3
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It's so hypocritical that in some circles, there is no doubt when it comes to other species, like a bald eagle, but when it comes to human beings, it's suddenly a case of "nobody knows".

Isn't it strange that the government has no problem determining that the lives of animals begin at conception and that they are "alive" before they are born or hatched, but with human beings there is suddenly a blind spot?

It is also not good enough to claim "We don't know when life begins." If a civil engineer does not KNOW whether a condemned building has occupants, he would be criminally negligent if he blew it up before finding out. If an undertaker does not KNOW whether a person is alive or dead, he would never bury him. So even if we don't know whether the unborn child is alive, the responsible thing is NOT to kill him/her.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 12:03 AM   #4
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Killing is killing . . . same with both babies and murders. Let God take them when he's ready.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 12:27 AM   #5
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Abortion is an act of convenience and selfishness. If a baby doesn't fit into your life, then get rid of it.

I think its ironic that in our legal system today, if a pregnant mother is murdered, then the killer is charged with 2 murders. Even if the mother was on the way to the abortion clinic.

The other option is always adoption. There are so many people waiting years to adopt. My buddy and his wife are unable to have children and they are on a 3 year waiting list to begin to start an adoption. What if these mothers started letting these children be loved through adoption rather than disposing of them?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 07:17 AM   #6
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I DO NOT think it should be used as a form of 'birth control' but in cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother I think that is the exception. In no way would I make a raped woman carry that rape baby to term, I know there are good people out there that were rape babies, but I cannot imagine the hardship they had as a child, the emotional scarring to the woman has to be insane, to carry that reminder for 9 months and then to have to raise it too...
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 07:27 AM   #7
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The other option is always adoption. There are so many people waiting years to adopt. My buddy and his wife are unable to have children and they are on a 3 year waiting list to begin to start an adoption. What if these mothers started letting these children be loved through adoption rather than disposing of them?
This statement is BS. There are ways of adopting babies that don't take this long. I know a couple (not wealthy in any way either) that have adopted 2 babies in 3 years.

Are these people willing to adopt a baby or child born from a crack head, meath head or alcoholic mother? That is the type of baby you are going to have waiting around to get adopted.

It's pretty easy to jump on the adoption band wagon and claim all of these women need to go through with the pregnacy and put there babies up for adoption. The ugly truth is you are going to get a lot of drug addicted and/or handicaped babies that nobody wants.

Don't get me wrong-I don't believe abortion should be used as a means of birth control, but, in certain instances it might be the better option. The big question is where do you draw the line?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 07:28 AM   #8
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I DO NOT think it should be used as a form of 'birth control' but in cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother I think that is the exception. In no way would I make a raped woman carry that rape baby to term, I know there are good people out there that were rape babies, but I cannot imagine the hardship they had as a child, the emotional scarring to the woman has to be insane, to carry that reminder for 9 months and then to have to raise it too...
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 07:38 AM   #9
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I DO NOT think it should be used as a form of 'birth control' but in cases of rape, incest, and danger to the mother I think that is the exception. In no way would I make a raped woman carry that rape baby to term, I know there are good people out there that were rape babies, but I cannot imagine the hardship they had as a child, the emotional scarring to the woman has to be insane, to carry that reminder for 9 months and then to have to raise it too...
Have you considered the following (some of which I heard as a news story on NPR last night and almost vomitted):

IF you consider a fetus to be alive (anyone who has had an ultrasound during their pregnancy has no doubt), then killing it is murder. It is sad that a woman could get raped. It is also sad that the woman may have to carry around a child that is the result of that rape for 9 months. But if you already conceeded that killing is murder, then I do not think having the woman commit murder is a viable solution for the emotional scarring she is feeling from the rape. In fact, I would imagine the woman is going to feel sorrow from the rape long after 9 months regardless of whether she is carrying the baby.

Did you know (this is the part from NPR where they were talking about late-term abortion to save the life of the mother) that there is no sound support that late-term abortions increase the likelyhood of survival of the mother. There is legislation in place right now regarding late-term abortion that exists because of this lack of evidence. Did you also know (don't read this if you are eating lunch) that the procedure for abortion after the first trimester (as in the case to "save the mothers life") they vacuum out the body of the fetus, then open the canal with a tube and remove the head with large forceps. I almost fainted when I heard that.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 07:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Have you considered the following (some of which I heard as a news story on NPR last night and almost vomitted):

IF you consider a fetus to be alive (anyone who has had an ultrasound during their pregnancy has no doubt), then killing it is murder. It is sad that a woman could get raped. It is also sad that the woman may have to carry around a child that is the result of that rape for 9 months. But if you already conceeded that killing is murder, then I do not think having the woman commit murder is a viable solution for the emotional scarring she is feeling from the rape. In fact, I would imagine the woman is going to feel sorrow from the rape long after 9 months regardless of whether she is carrying the baby.

Did you know (this is the part from NPR where they were talking about late-term abortion to save the life of the mother) that there is no sound support that late-term abortions increase the likelyhood of survival of the mother. There is legislation in place right now regarding late-term abortion that exists because of this lack of evidence. Did you also know (don't read this if you are eating lunch) that the procedure for abortion after the first trimester (as in the case to "save the mothers life") they vacuum out the body of the fetus, then open the canal with a tube and remove the head with large forceps. I almost fainted when I heard that.

I don't think anyone here could argue that late tern abortions are right in any way.

Consider this...and answer truthfully...the doctor comes to you and your 3 month pregnant wife and tells you your wife could die if she finishes her pregnancy...your uncle, brother, the creepy guy down the street or the crack head violent pimp working next door rapes your 15 year old daughter...
Can you truthfully tell me you would not consider abortion or in the case of the rape the morning after pill or something similar?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 08:21 AM   #11
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Consider this...and answer truthfully...the doctor comes to you and your 3 month pregnant wife and tells you your wife could die if she finishes her pregnancy...your uncle, brother, the creepy guy down the street or the crack head violent pimp working next door rapes your 15 year old daughter...
Can you truthfully tell me you would not consider abortion or in the case of the rape the morning after pill or something similar?
That is pretty much what I am saying. Life is tough. Unfortunate devistating things happen. Murder doesn't create solutions, just more problems.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 08:26 AM   #12
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That is pretty much what I am saying. Life is tough. Unfortunate devistating things happen. Murder doesn't create solutions, just more problems.
You can talk like that all you want, until something like that actually happens to you.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 08:47 AM   #13
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That is pretty much what I am saying. Life is tough. Unfortunate devistating things happen. Murder doesn't create solutions, just more problems.
At the same time, and I know its hard to do us being male, think about if you were a woman who was raped, and you had this thing in you that was not wanted in any shape or form, I know i WOULD NOT care how it dissappeared. I know for a fact I would beat MYSELF with a baseball bat to get it out of me. Call me a murderer or whatever, but the rape is a trauma that lasts a few minutes usually at most, and would be easier to deal with then the emotional scarring from carrying the result of a crackhead, not to mention whatever disease you may receive then to have the additional 'punishment' for 9 months just to let it be adopted? No thank you. I cannot even imagine raising it as my own and sending it off to college -- that's all 'it' would be to me is an 'it'. To me rapists are the scum of the earth and to know that I allowed their genes to stay in the gene pool is terrible in my thoughts.

You usually know within a few weeks if you are pregnant by a rapist, at that time the EMBRYO is just that, a few jumbled cells, it would feel no pain and the mother likely would not either. That comes down to your definition of life though. And this is where I feel the woman should be able to decide, it is no one's decision but hers, there is a time and circumstance when people need to stay out of personal business when it does not affect them.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 08:59 AM   #14
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This statement is BS. There are ways of adopting babies that don't take this long. I know a couple (not wealthy in any way either) that have adopted 2 babies in 3 years.

it might be the better option. The big question is where do you draw the line?

Not sure where they are adopting kids, but I know the wait is long and it is very expensive. They are actually considering adopting from China now.

I draw the line at murder. I think its wrong.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:02 AM   #15
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You can talk like that all you want, until something like that actually happens to you.
You are correct. We can't ever know how we will react until something horrible happens to us. The question is, if it is wrong, then is it correct to do?

If people agree that it is wrong (like many people that say it is wrong except for rape) then why would it be right sometimes? 2 wrongs don't make a right.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:08 AM   #16
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87YJ, I respect your opinion but I was wonder if you have a wife or daughter?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:11 AM   #17
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Not sure where they are adopting kids, but I know the wait is long and it is very expensive. They are actually considering adopting from China now.

I draw the line at murder. I think its wrong.
I have 3 aunts that have adopted US born, very normal kids, they were never on a waiting list of any sort. I don't believe they spent a lot of money doing it either. Considering one has adopted 4, one adopted 3, and one adopted 2 in a very short time. But 2/3 were also foster parents, and did it specifically to adopt. Sounds like they are just going about it the wrong way.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:21 AM   #18
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You can talk like that all you want, until something like that actually happens to you.
Yes, and then you become a man which means not having an abortion. . . . or you can continue to be a juvenile punk and have an abortion.

I don't see why killing a baby is okay because "O shit, this is happening to me" has any grounds for being right in any way. Time to suck it up and own up on your RESPONSIBLITY.

Edit: Above stated from the male point of view of accidental pregnancy.

Even with rape or incest and how wrong it might be, killing is killing and last time I checked killing was wrong.

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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:24 AM   #19
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ok

I have a wife, 2 daughters and 2 sisters....my oldest sister is the result of a rape..and we (including my mother) love her just the same.

regardless of how the baby was conceived it is still MURDER!!!!.......there is always a family that would take the child. especially a newborn.

who are we to deny the right to life to anyone or anything. only God can do that. those that take it upon themselves to determine who does and who does not have the right to live will have to answer to him at their judgement

with that said....everyone is going to have different opinions, all I can do is provide mine.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 09:29 AM   #20
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Here is my take as a Catholic and a Republican....

I am pro-choice
I am for the death penaly
I am for stem cell research
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