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Old March 28th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #1
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Default 4.10s vs 4.56s for street/strip car..

I have two pairs of axles, one of which I am going to use, the other I will be selling. Trying to decide which to use. One has 4.10s, one has 4.56s, both are 4 wheel discs, and strong enough for what I want to do.

For a street/strip vehicle, mostly street, do you think there's benefit to running the deeper gears for better off the line accelleration?

I expect to run it a couple times at the strip, to see what it does, but its mostly for just driving on the strip. Its a semi-sleeper vehicle, so I want it to surprise people how quick it is. With 4.56s, there's a good chance that I could max out 3rd gear before the end of a 1/4 mile track which would hurt times, but its more of a street vehicle.

Its light, and AWD. I see the Trailblazer SS guys talk about how 4.56s help them jump off the line. But those are 5000lb whales. TBSS's run 4.10s stock, and 30" tires. I also will run 29 or 30" tires.

Thinking about a ~3500 rpm stall.


Wondering if people out there who have experience with faster cars have thoughts on this. Wouldn't want to make the car slower in reality by over gearing it....
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Old March 28th, 2013, 11:48 AM   #2
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Axle pair one = Dana 30HP(XJ) / Ford 9" with tru-trac. 4.56s, 4 wheel discs
Axle pair two = Dana 30 (TJ) / Ford 8.8" with factory LDS, 4.10s, 4 wheel discs.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #3
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You going to be driving around in 2wd or 4wd?
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Old March 28th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #4
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Maybe I missed it, but what's the complete combo? Vehicle, drivetrain, tire size, etc.?
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Old March 28th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #5
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You going to be driving around in 2wd or 4wd?
Full time AWD (Borg Warner 4472, what was used in the Syclone)

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Maybe I missed it, but what's the complete combo? Vehicle, drivetrain, tire size, etc.?
Jeep CJ6 on a ???? chassis (could use the CJ6 and leaves, with cal-tracs, but right now its on a stretched TJ chassis), weight should be 3000 lbs, maybe even a little less, its pretty stripped.

Chevy LS2, planning to do heads, cam, headers, etc, builds of this type are usually about 500-525 Crank HP, and maybe 475-500 torque.

full manual 700R4, thinking a yank ss3600 or similar style converter.

Hehehe, I think with 4.56s, it'd run nice on the sand on baby paddles, too...(no low range, but I have surveyed a lot of guys about what they run in sand, and the 4.56s + 3.06 first is right around the sweet spot for most people..)


But being honest, I get to the sand 1-2 times a year. And maybe run the strip 1-2 times a year. Mainly a street car. Its going to look like, well, a junky old Jeep. Want it to pretty much be able to take anything from 0-60 on a regular michigan street (i.e. crappy surface for a 2wd to hook on)... Which is the reason for AWD. Will have standard street tires in a 255-275 width, depending on my setup.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 01:27 PM   #6
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Starting work on the chassis soon, I have everything except the torque converter. And the LS2 is presently stock.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #7
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4.56s
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Old March 28th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #8
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4.56s
x2

Forgot to ask, what tire size?
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Old March 28th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #9
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When I surveyed guys running fast trucks on the sand, it seemed like the 'money' gear was a combo that gave them around 130-166 rpm per mph. Guys running BIG power motors running high range were in the 130-140 rpm per mph range, guys running 400-600hp were in the 160-ish rpm per mph.

With 4.10s, I am at 146 rpm / mph, max trap speed in 3rd is about 130-135mph
With 4.56s, I am at 163 rpm / mph, max trap speed in 3rd about 115-120mph

Max trap speed depends on torque converter slip.

Never going to go 130mph in the quarter. But if I put in the numbers to racing calcs, its telling me something around 10.9-11.2 at 119-122mph. This jives with how fast TBSS's are going with similar mods and their race weights. I will be 1500lbs under a TBSS.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #10
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x2

Forgot to ask, what tire size?
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I also will run 29 or 30" tires. ..
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Old March 28th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #11
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I loved my 4.56s, and 418ci 550hp, 4800 pound 4wd 04 ram for the 1/4 mile, but it was even more fun on the street with those gears, that was with a 5 speed auto and 30" tall tires

I trapped 110 mph @12.26
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Old March 28th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #12
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I loved my 4.56s, and 418ci 550hp, 4800 pound 4wd 04 ram for the 1/4 mile, but it was even more fun on the street with those gears, that was with a 5 speed auto and 30" tall tires

I trapped 110 mph @12.26
Very similar to what guys are doing in head/cam TBSS's which are around that 4800lb mark.

If I look at the standard racing calculators, then 110 mph @ 4800lbs (race weight with or without driver?), that says 525hp, 547hp if I add in a 200lb driver.

OK, now, in a 300lbs with 230lb driver, and 500hp, same calculator says 10.85 @ 123.5mph.

I'm wondering, with that much lower weight, if the lower gears help, or, with the 4.10s already being low, and the hit from the converter, is it better to go with the 4.10s, and stay in 1st gear longer.


The only other downside to the 4.56s, is the rear is too wide (Ford 9), I'd need to narrow it. Also, worried about the strength of that stock 3rd member. Don't think its a nodular case.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #13
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Do you have a complete dyno'd build you can compare to? Look at the real torque curve, the whole idea is to stay within the power band the entire time. Do the math and see where it will fall in each gear, from shift to shift with each ratio and see what works best.

My gut tells me that with no low range you'll end up wanting the 456 either way if you really want to play in the sand with a decent tire.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #14
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Do you have a complete dyno'd build you can compare to? Look at the real torque curve, the whole idea is to stay within the power band the entire time. Do the math and see where it will fall in each gear, from shift to shift with each ratio and see what works best.

My gut tells me that with no low range you'll end up wanting the 456 either way if you really want to play in the sand with a decent tire.
Yeah, if I thought I'd actually put paddles on it and use it more than once on the sand, then I would prioritize that.

Its mainly a hot rod. *maybe* it would go to SL, but we go once a year right now, not thinking that a full set of paddles is cost effective for one trip...


I have all of the shift points mapped out. Those are determined by the transmission, so regardless of axle gear, I'll always fall back to the same RPM. It also is helped a little with the shift extension from the converter.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #15
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Are you stuck on using a 700? Just my opinion, but I'm no fan of them, especially for any kind of performance use.
The downside, is you're trying to get a balance for 2 totally different setups. Completely different trying to go fast on the sand, as it is trying to go fast on asphalt.
What axles are you going to use on the front to run AWD on the pavement? I'd be worried about that holding up.
I ran my Jeep a couple times on the asphalt, and my 4.88's were ok for 1/8 mile, but nowhere near useful in the 1/4 (not that I was running it out the back anyway). But, that was with a 3 speed auto. I would think you'd be more than fine with the 4 speed auto
Where are you figuring out rpm / mph?
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Old March 28th, 2013, 04:24 PM   #16
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Yeah, if I thought I'd actually put paddles on it and use it more than once on the sand, then I would prioritize that.

Its mainly a hot rod. *maybe* it would go to SL, but we go once a year right now, not thinking that a full set of paddles is cost effective for one trip...


I have all of the shift points mapped out. Those are determined by the transmission, so regardless of axle gear, I'll always fall back to the same RPM. It also is helped a little with the shift extension from the converter.
My comment was more aimed at the rpm immediately after the shift, not shift points.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 04:37 PM   #17
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My comment was more aimed at the rpm immediately after the shift, not shift points.
Which is one of the reasons I am not a fan of the 700. The gearing split is not the best for shift recovery.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #18
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Yeah, I know that 1-2 shift is wide. I have the trans, built by a buddy (KillerB) who builds them to sit behind big blocks, so I am hoping it will survive.

By far, the main thing, is a street car. I wanted to build a hot rod, but I live on crappy dirt roads, and I have this Jeep, which was just sitting there. Its paint job reminded me of old drag cars.

So, I started trying to think of doing something a little different, making a hot rod Jeep. But most of the hot rod Jeeps Ive seen are like a pro-street look with big fat tires in the back. Decided what about AWD for the street. No lift, maybe even lower than stock. I would love the look of narrow track axles, with tires tucked, lower than stock, with 17" steel rallies. But I probably will go with wider axles and a little taller stance, since I have those parts already.

So, decided on AWD, as a 0 to 70mph terror. So I want gears to launch like a missile, which means I really want overdrive, to live with whatever gears I pick. AWD cases, not many options for older 3 speeds. The Syclone and Typhoon cases hold the power level I am looking for, they need a 700R4/early 4L60e.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 06:34 PM   #19
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Yeah, I know that 1-2 shift is wide. I have the trans, built by a buddy (KillerB) who builds them to sit behind big blocks, so I am hoping it will survive.

By far, the main thing, is a street car. I wanted to build a hot rod, but I live on crappy dirt roads, and I have this Jeep, which was just sitting there. Its paint job reminded me of old drag cars.

So, I started trying to think of doing something a little different, making a hot rod Jeep. But most of the hot rod Jeeps Ive seen are like a pro-street look with big fat tires in the back. Decided what about AWD for the street. No lift, maybe even lower than stock. I would love the look of narrow track axles, with tires tucked, lower than stock, with 17" steel rallies. But I probably will go with wider axles and a little taller stance, since I have those parts already.

So, decided on AWD, as a 0 to 70mph terror. So I want gears to launch like a missile, which means I really want overdrive, to live with whatever gears I pick. AWD cases, not many options for older 3 speeds. The Syclone and Typhoon cases hold the power level I am looking for, they need a 700R4/early 4L60e.
I think you just answered your own question. For a 0 to 70mph terror you want All the gear you can get.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 06:35 PM   #20
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Ive taken some heat, for a couple builds that I started, but didn't finish. They all didn't get finished, because the amount of time to build an offroad Jeep that gets used 4 times a year just isn't worth it. I went into this saying: OK, what WOULD I use? Wife and I both have wanted a FAST convertable/hot rod for cruising for a while, and I'd use it all summer long, to drive to work. So this plan was hatched.

Right now I have:

CJ6 sitting on stretched TJ chassis
LS2 from a trailblazer
Built reverse manual 700R4
BW 4472 t-case
Dana 30 from a TJ with 4.10s
Ford 8.8 from explorer with 4.10s and disc
seats
roll cage
STock TJ fuel tank to modify for new pump
Dash with full aftermarket gages
Full fuel system, minus fuel pump, for LSx engine
Full vehicle harness (aftermarket), already trimmed and taped for my Jeep.
E-fans and controller
aftermarket LS radiator
trans cooler

(A bunch of this came from my scrambler project)

I need to buy:

converter, wheels/tires, and exhaust, and whatever I add to the engine (cam, heads, etc)


I have the Ford 9" with 4.56s and a detroit tru trac, and a disassembled HP30 with 4.56 gears also.


Also was thinking, that I might not want that HP30 in the front, the low pinion TJ axle might help me clear long tube headers. Don't know of anyone that makes outside the frame headers for an LSx with 1.75 or 1.875 primaries and 3" collectors.

I am just planning standard Dana 30 front shafts, as those were used in AWD applications, although the grand cherokees, especially later ones, used CV-joint axleshafts, which are rumored to be stronger than u-joint style, and smoother for AWD use on pavement, so I might look for those...
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