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Old February 25th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #41
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See, that's where I think a little different. I would NEVER disrespect an officer as he was. And to me, that is a huge problem. There is no respect. This guy calls them for help, and then disrepects them. Do you think this would have been a different outcome had the guy acted in a different manner, or do you think the officer would have still done the same?
If you are in Iraq, and you are face to face with an emeny, do you stand down and wait for them to take the first shot at you, or do you take control of the situation first to stay safe?
I am not a soldier, never been to war, and have the utmost respect for people that fight for this country. That question is an honest question wondering how you would react.
You asked and I will gladly answer.

Yes I would've stood down because our all knowing government decided that if we were the ones to fire the first shot we would go to prison for a nice long time.

If a soldier cannot respond to a distraught foreign citizen with physical force than why can a police officer respond in that manner to a citizen of the country he is serving?

The regulations regarding the use of force are horribly off point. Police departments are a REACTIONARY force to a criminal act. They aren't on every corner to make sure it doesn't happen. A lot of people are under the impression that the police are always close enough to protect them until something happens. Once they are exposed to this... Of course they're going to be off the hinges upset. It doesn't take a psychologist to know that someone who was brutalized is a little pissed off. The most unprofessional thing you can do is further brutalize that victim just because their harsh words pissed you off.

If that cop would've told him to calm down and gave him a legit reason as to why it took so long to respond other than "I was eating my lunch at the diner down the road" he would've been placated and the investigation could've proceeded without further violence towards the victim who called for assistance.

I'm not anti-cop at all. I'm the son of an honorable cop's daughter and Army Veteran myself. However, I am against the blatant abuse of power that almost every form of government is exhibiting on the very people that put them in power.

**Edit: Oh and a little fact that you all seem to forget because this is the internet.... I will gladly buy any of you a beer and discuss whatever you want in person. I owe Hancho more than one beer simply because he's a great guy. Anyone that posts on this forum that thinks someone is a piece of shit just because of what they see on the internet needs a wake up call in a bad way.

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Old February 25th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #42
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Police are to protect and serve, period! That cop was way out of line!
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Old February 25th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #43
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what would it take to get civilian review boards like they have in Canada land, to stop this extreme militant behavior?
A Rep or Senator to introduce the bill and enough citizens that are tired of the police acting like they are untouchable lords over the citizens to make sure it happens.

This day and age it wouldn't be difficult.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #44
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You asked and I will gladly answer.

Yes I would've stood down because our all knowing government decided that if we were the ones to fire the first shot we would go to prison for a nice long time.

If a soldier cannot respond to a distraught foreign citizen with physical force than why can a police officer respond in that manner to a citizen of the country he is serving?
The regulations regarding the use of force are horribly off point. Police departments are a REACTIONARY force to a criminal act. They aren't on every corner to make sure it doesn't happen. A lot of people are under the impression that the police are always close enough to protect them until something happens. Once they are exposed to this... Of course they're going to be off the hinges upset. It doesn't take a psychologist to know that someone who was brutalized is a little pissed off. The most unprofessional thing you can do is further brutalize that victim just because their harsh words pissed you off.

If that cop would've told him to calm down and gave him a legit reason as to why it took so long to respond other than "I was eating my lunch at the diner down the road" he would've been placated and the investigation could've proceeded without further violence towards the victim who called for assistance.

I'm not anti-cop at all. I'm the son of an honorable cop's daughter and Army Veteran myself. However, I am against the blatant abuse of power that almost every form of government is exhibiting on the very people that put them in power.

**Edit: Oh and a little fact that you all seem to forget because this is the internet.... I will gladly buy any of you a beer and discuss whatever you want in person. I owe Hancho more than one beer simply because he's a great guy. Anyone that posts on this forum that thinks someone is a piece of shit just because of what they see on the internet needs a wake up call in a bad way.
I think you are getting it twisted. Your ROE and police ROE are completely different. I understand a soldier even if fired upon may not be able to return fire as directed by his ROE. However, police, supported by case law and the Supreme Court are under no obligation to retreat, nor do they do have to wait until attacked to defend themselves. According the accepted force continuum the police are allowed by LAW to operate on a +1 level. Meaning they can respond to force one level higher than they are encountered with to control a situation or stop a threat to themselves or someone else. Someone approaching an officer in an aggressive manner, tense, clinched fists. Using aggressive language, such as “You are talking to a US soldier, you better recognize!” Presents a threat. Police are taught to maintain a reactionary gap, anything inside of that reactionary gap becomes a possible threat. Now throw in someone in an excited emotional state, approaching in an aggressive manner, using aggressive language. With all that being said, looking that the video and judging the guy just on his actions I see and hear in the video the guy is in what the force continuum calls active aggression. Which include actively punching, kicking, grabbing, but also includes, advancing and challenging. Operating on the accepted, not excessive plus one theory, the office may use, physical controls and or up to intermediate weapons(which would be the plus one here). The accepted physical controls are hard empty hand techniques include strikes and take downs. The officer delivered ONE open hand stun, one! Nothing he did was excessive.

Then dive into dealing with people in an emotional charged state of mind and you can throw just about all common sense out the window. You cannot rationalize with someone in a manic frame of mind. Their emotions will not let them listen to reason.


oh and

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Old February 25th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #45
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I think they should.both be punished by being relocated to detroit. Their behaviors will get them their just deserves there for sure...
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Old February 25th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #46
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I would be more inclined to take the police officers side. However, he clearly is on a power trip. Was I needed for him to pull the marine card? Did he let it go? After he had the kid say sorry why didnt he get to the matter at hand? He shows so much aggression I am willing to bet he like the power.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 10:08 PM   #47
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SS you are off the reservation to the point of being irrational about this.

You mean to tell me that "" for example"" because the enemy has not fired upon you "YET" that it is wrong, lawfully and morally to fire upon them? You should stand by while the enemy unslings their weapon, loads it, aims, and fires before reacting? Wait, you can react... But it should be limited to hand gestures and kind words until they actually shoot you...

Or that it is the military's policy to meet force only with equal force? -- Because they have not fired rockets at you, you may not fire rockets at them? (And if that is the case that it is not a reeeeetardud policy?) Law enforcement has to work on a similar principle. Without that ability to escalate within reason it would be pointless.

Somehow this is getting confused with a marines vs army thing, or a respect vs disrespect thing.

BTW you mentioned 'the actions of law enforcement of the past 20 years'. Dude, 20+ years ago (well probably more like 40+) there was NO oversight of law enforcement. The Sherf did wtf he damned well pleased and answered to no one but his buddy the judge. NOTHING made it to the Supreme Court for a measure of Constitutionality. There is more accountability now than ever, too much in some cases (perhaps not enough in some other cases).
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Old February 25th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #48
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Old February 25th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #49
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I would be more inclined to take the police officers side. However, he clearly is on a power trip. Was I needed for him to pull the marine card? Did he let it go? After he had the kid say sorry why didnt he get to the matter at hand? He shows so much aggression I am willing to bet he like the power.
So if he would have used different words after the fact, you would be ok with the takedown?
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Old February 25th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #50
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So if he would have used different words after the fact, you would be ok with the takedown?
I don't know that the take down can be justified. My opinion of the officer would be much different. I really think he is a tool bag. He confirmed this with all of his actions including but not limited to the way he handled the situation after he had control of the kid.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 05:02 AM   #51
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I would have been ok with the take down had the cop attempted to defuse the situation or at least give warning prior to the assault. In the vid the cop clearly approached the kid not the other way around and the kid pointed that out prior to the assault. I could care less if the cop had to best his ass, pepper spray and or taze the kid had he taken the professional approach. And as hancho stated his comments sfter the take down were not the professional routine.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 05:49 AM   #52
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blah blah blah. The smartass kid started out on the wrong foot. He called the cops for help and immediately went on the offensive. "don't bite the hand that feeds you".

I was raised to respect law enforcement officers and I would never consider going on the offensive like he did. He was wrong. A cop puts his life on the line every time he goes on one of these calls and after some time, I'm sure they get pretty good at reading the situation. This cop read the situation and realized the kid's aggravation was escalating quickly. So, he ended it quickly. All the kid got was a bruised ego.

I can't imagine dealing with assholes like that every day. I would not last on that job as my patience would not put up with it.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 06:14 AM   #53
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Officers demand respect. That's the problem. They think they are above the law and above the citizens they serve.
The jackass smoker in the video was being an idiot, and the officer made an idiot move shortly there after.. There both assholes of the same kind and they came tougher. We all know the outcome.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 06:38 AM   #54
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I don't see much good coming out of a big ego, cop/rapper anyway.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 07:26 AM   #55
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Are you a U.S. Marine?
No.

Are you?
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Old February 26th, 2013, 07:35 AM   #56
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No.

Are you?
LOL!!!

I am. And proud of it. This video was entertaining. You all ruined it by arguing it into the ground.

I get though, you all hate cops. Especially Hancho.
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I do drive a jeep and I have puffed a peter maybe once or twice

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I am willing to bet its a bunch of geriatric old farts bitching about anyone under 50 and touching each others weiners.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 07:52 AM   #57
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I was also raised to respect cops, and generally do.

However, it seems that cop misbehavior is increasing.

My (then 20 year-old) son has a long-time "friend" who is constantly getting into trouble (of his own free will). I'll call him "D". A local cop is looking for "D", and stops a group of 20-ish year old guys that includes "D". When asked, "D" (knowing they're looking for him for "questioning") gives my kid's name and claims not to be carrying ID. My kid's at work in another city. Cops leaves, guys go on their way.

Quickly, the word about "D" getting one over on this cop gets around (small town, little crime, not much to do). Cop is embarrassed.

Cop decides to target my kid, so that he will deliver "D" to him. He explains that since "D" used his name, he's now part of the problem (cop won't why he wants to talk to "D"). Cops starts pulling son over 2-3 times a week. Tickets for "rolling stops", "parked too far from curb", 35 in a 30 zone, and my favorite "not stopping before exiting a driveway". All same cop. Each time he asks my son where "D" is - son answers (truthfully) that he doesn't know - he lives on people's couches and drifts around college towns.

Kid's car insurance goes up, based on tickets (even though judge started knocking them all down to "impeding traffic"/minimum fine/no costs after seeing number and same officer on each.

I talk to cop and get explanation that since "D" used my kid's name, he's now "an accessory" to something that he can't explain ("active investigation"). Cop then runs intimidation game on me (steps very close to show he's larger, put sunglasses on while talking, raises voice and gestures aggressively, etc...). Next day wife gets pulled over on way to work (same cop) and questioned about dark windows in truck (factory) and contents of boxes in truck (she's a hospice nurse). I get stopped (same cop) on bike to "verify my helmet is DOT approved" and see if I have an endorsement. Come to see same cop photographing my Jeep parked in driveway ('there's been some vandalism with an offroad vehicle").

I talk to Township Supervisor and Police Chief. Police Chief weasels around and tries to defend cop's actions.

Respect for cops? Severely damaged, all because of one abusing the position and being defended by leadership.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #58
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I was also raised to respect cops, and generally do.

However, it seems that cop misbehavior is increasing.

My (then 20 year-old) son has a long-time "friend" who is constantly getting into trouble (of his own free will). I'll call him "D". A local cop is looking for "D", and stops a group of 20-ish year old guys that includes "D". When asked, "D" (knowing they're looking for him for "questioning") gives my kid's name and claims not to be carrying ID. My kid's at work in another city. Cops leaves, guys go on their way.

Quickly, the word about "D" getting one over on this cop gets around (small town, little crime, not much to do). Cop is embarrassed.

Cop decides to target my kid, so that he will deliver "D" to him. He explains that since "D" used his name, he's now part of the problem (cop won't why he wants to talk to "D"). Cops starts pulling son over 2-3 times a week. Tickets for "rolling stops", "parked too far from curb", 35 in a 30 zone, and my favorite "not stopping before exiting a driveway". All same cop. Each time he asks my son where "D" is - son answers (truthfully) that he doesn't know - he lives on people's couches and drifts around college towns.

Kid's car insurance goes up, based on tickets (even though judge started knocking them all down to "impeding traffic"/minimum fine/no costs after seeing number and same officer on each.

I talk to cop and get explanation that since "D" used my kid's name, he's now "an accessory" to something that he can't explain ("active investigation"). Cop then runs intimidation game on me (steps very close to show he's larger, put sunglasses on while talking, raises voice and gestures aggressively, etc...). Next day wife gets pulled over on way to work (same cop) and questioned about dark windows in truck (factory) and contents of boxes in truck (she's a hospice nurse). I get stopped (same cop) on bike to "verify my helmet is DOT approved" and see if I have an endorsement. Come to see same cop photographing my Jeep parked in driveway ('there's been some vandalism with an offroad vehicle").

I talk to Township Supervisor and Police Chief. Police Chief weasels around and tries to defend cop's actions.

Respect for cops? Severely damaged, all because of one abusing the position and being defended by leadership.
This is a sad situation and has bad implications for you and the cop as well. That's horrible. It's akin to using blackmail to produce "D".

I had a similar situation, my son was being targeted by a county deputy who also went to high school with me. More than once I have been pulled over by this guy, and improperly pulled over as well.

I began a personal relationship with the "D" in my son's life, helping with money, chatting with him in person, building trust. Then one day, I called the cop on his personal phone and told him where to find the "D" in my son's life. Told him (respectfully) to leave me and my son alone. (Of course he would now, he had the target he had been after)

Although my respect for cops might be tarnished, it's still person-to-person until the next one ruins it for himself.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 08:18 AM   #59
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I was also raised to respect cops, and generally do.

However, it seems that cop misbehavior is increasing.

My (then 20 year-old) son has a long-time "friend" who is constantly getting into trouble (of his own free will). I'll call him "D". A local cop is looking for "D", and stops a group of 20-ish year old guys that includes "D". When asked, "D" (knowing they're looking for him for "questioning") gives my kid's name and claims not to be carrying ID. My kid's at work in another city. Cops leaves, guys go on their way.

Quickly, the word about "D" getting one over on this cop gets around (small town, little crime, not much to do). Cop is embarrassed.

Cop decides to target my kid, so that he will deliver "D" to him. He explains that since "D" used his name, he's now part of the problem (cop won't why he wants to talk to "D"). Cops starts pulling son over 2-3 times a week. Tickets for "rolling stops", "parked too far from curb", 35 in a 30 zone, and my favorite "not stopping before exiting a driveway". All same cop. Each time he asks my son where "D" is - son answers (truthfully) that he doesn't know - he lives on people's couches and drifts around college towns.

Kid's car insurance goes up, based on tickets (even though judge started knocking them all down to "impeding traffic"/minimum fine/no costs after seeing number and same officer on each.

I talk to cop and get explanation that since "D" used my kid's name, he's now "an accessory" to something that he can't explain ("active investigation"). Cop then runs intimidation game on me (steps very close to show he's larger, put sunglasses on while talking, raises voice and gestures aggressively, etc...). Next day wife gets pulled over on way to work (same cop) and questioned about dark windows in truck (factory) and contents of boxes in truck (she's a hospice nurse). I get stopped (same cop) on bike to "verify my helmet is DOT approved" and see if I have an endorsement. Come to see same cop photographing my Jeep parked in driveway ('there's been some vandalism with an offroad vehicle").

I talk to Township Supervisor and Police Chief. Police Chief weasels around and tries to defend cop's actions.

Respect for cops? Severely damaged, all because of one abusing the position and being defended by leadership.
This would be mildly irritating, to say the least
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Old February 26th, 2013, 08:21 AM   #60
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Duffman, that sucks. However, one bad cop does not make all cops bad any more than one asshole doing a lawn job makes all 4 wheelers bad. What did the Township supervisor say?
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