Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

The Pub A friendly forum where everybody is nice, and will answer any questions you have about life.







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 14th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #81
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,875
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
I'm only sharing personal experience from real world examples, not a magazine article I read about on the internet where I know nothing of the test performed.


Did you read the full thing? Willing to bet they were just a bit more meticulous in their fuel economy tracking than your varied ranges of fuel mileage you posted.

Yea, my car gets around 18-30 MPG and my personal estimates outweigh comparison testing done with a little bit of scientific methods applied.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; February 14th, 2013 at 07:19 PM.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #82
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 2,854
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
No, your comment was irrelevant to all diesels. They typically drop just as bad as gas motors when towing/loaded. The advantage is they can get better unloaded mileage, and have more power.

3/4 gasser = 12-15 unloaded 8-11 towing
3/4 diesel = 15-20 unloaded 8-12 towing
I agree with most of your logic in this thread but on a few notes I disagree.

The market will show you that if you compare a cummins truck of any year vs the gas version it will bring much more. Compare a 06 hemi 4x4 2500 vs a cummins with same options and miles. It will bring $7k+ more. Do the same for any Dmax. When it comes to Ford the 6.0L powerstroke was such a turd it has similar resale to the 3V V10.

Also FWIW we pulled a 21ft V nose snowmobile trailer from Billings MT to Cooke city MT with a 2011 F250 4x4 crew diesel and got 12.7mpg. We did the exact same trip the next day with a 2010 F150 4x4 crew cab with a 5.4L and 8.5mpg pulling same trailer, gear, and guys.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #83
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 2,854
iTrader: (9)
Also Im a diesel fan boy, no doubt but I cant justify buying a new diesel as the maintence, increased piece price, fuel the payoff is not worth it. For me the satisfaction of owning a diesel is the towing/hauling factor. Nothing feels like a diesel when towing, its effortless. When we tow a trailer 3k miles I get so sick of hearing a gas engine pegged at 4k rpms through the mountains where as the diesel does it much quieter and with less effort.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #84
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 30,153
iTrader: (46)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry1me View Post
I agree with most of your logic in this thread but on a few notes I disagree.

The market will show you that if you compare a cummins truck of any year vs the gas version it will bring much more. Compare a 06 hemi 4x4 2500 vs a cummins with same options and miles. It will bring $7k+ more. Do the same for any Dmax. When it comes to Ford the 6.0L powerstroke was such a turd it has similar resale to the 3V V10.

Also FWIW we pulled a 21ft V nose snowmobile trailer from Billings MT to Cooke city MT with a 2011 F250 4x4 crew diesel and got 12.7mpg. We did the exact same trip the next day with a 2010 F150 4x4 crew cab with a 5.4L and 8.5mpg pulling same trailer, gear, and guys.
Yes, and how much more did you pay for that truck?

yes, it costs more up front, and it costs more used, doesn't mean the resale value is better, or that it hasn't depreciated the same amount, it just means you always pay more for it.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #85
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 2,854
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Yes, and how much more did you pay for that truck?

yes, it costs more up front, and it costs more used, doesn't mean the resale value is better, or that it hasn't depreciated the same amount, it just means you always pay more for it.
in 06 I believe the diesel option was around $6k more then a gasser, but I cant recall 100%. Im sure if someone cared to look it up online you could figure it out. I would bet from 07-10MY diesel trucks will loose there resale pretty bad in the future once people realize the 11+ diesels with Urea get considerably better fuel economy. Also in the future I dont think diesels will retain the resale of the increased premium of the diesel option when new.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #86
Brods
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-07
Location: Salem, Mi
Posts: 681
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
Thats actually kind of a neat comparison.

It shows that the truck with the smallest motor gets the best unloaded mileage, but takes the biggest hit when towing and that the truck with the biggest motor has the worst unloaded MPG, but takes the smallest hit towing.

Brand preference aside it seems like the Dodge would be the best commuter truck that tows very little, the Ford the best truck that tows a lot, and the Chevy as the best middle of the road option.

I was kinda surprised that the Cummins had the worst economy of all the diesels. I kinda thought when it came to the latest generation the Powerstroke was the suck for MPG...

I like too how it really illustrates the previous posts about how the slight increase in mileage is typically not worth the cost and hassle of owning a diesel for most people.

I have to say, nice find GMonkey :)
While the linked article might be good, it has many shortcomings and highlights the difficulty in accurately comparing vehicles today, especially smogified diesels.

At the time of the test did all the vehicles have the latest factory programming?

Were all the diesels in essentially the same starting state with regards to the emission systems, ie all starting with clean DPF's so the fuel sucking regens were typical for the way the vehicles were being driven during the test and were not influenced by the way the trucks were driven before the test?

Once you throw in other consumables besides fuel, such as Urea, comparing only MPG numbers it is not apples to apples anymore.
__________________
88 K5 350 700R4 241 D60 14B 42TSL
Brods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #87
Brods
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-07
Location: Salem, Mi
Posts: 681
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
GM? GM doesn't own a stake in VM Motori anymore.
Please post a link to back this statement up.
__________________
88 K5 350 700R4 241 D60 14B 42TSL
Brods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #88
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 2,854
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brods View Post
While the linked article might be good, it has many shortcomings and highlights the difficulty in accurately comparing vehicles today, especially smogified diesels.

At the time of the test did all the vehicles have the latest factory programming?

Were all the diesels in essentially the same starting state with regards to the emission systems, ie all starting with clean DPF's so the fuel sucking regens were typical for the way the vehicles were being driven during the test and were not influenced by the way the trucks were driven before the test?

Once you throw in other consumables besides fuel, such as Urea, comparing only MPG numbers it is not apples to apples anymore.
all good points. Considering I have been working with the WK/DS diesel program for over 6 months I dont believe there has been more then 5 or so complete exhaust systems made for the DS diesel so far. The WK is launching first. Also Urea is a consumable.....many are going 1500 miles or so on a gallon.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 07:33 AM   #89
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,174
iTrader: (17)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry1me View Post
in 06 I believe the diesel option was around $6k more then a gasser, but I cant recall 100%. Im sure if someone cared to look it up online you could figure it out. I would bet from 07-10MY diesel trucks will loose there resale pretty bad in the future once people realize the 11+ diesels with Urea get considerably better fuel economy. Also in the future I dont think diesels will retain the resale of the increased premium of the diesel option when new.
According to the build a truck thing on Chevy's site the Duramax/Allison is a $8395 price adder. I believe it was just a hair less than that when I bought my 07 classic as well.

However, back then, when you factored in the GMS price it knocked that down pretty good.
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 07:41 AM   #90
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,875
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brods View Post
While the linked article might be good, it has many shortcomings and highlights the difficulty in accurately comparing vehicles today, especially smogified diesels.

At the time of the test did all the vehicles have the latest factory programming?

Were all the diesels in essentially the same starting state with regards to the emission systems, ie all starting with clean DPF's so the fuel sucking regens were typical for the way the vehicles were being driven during the test and were not influenced by the way the trucks were driven before the test?

Once you throw in other consumables besides fuel, such as Urea, comparing only MPG numbers it is not apples to apples anymore.
Read the article....it will answer all of your questions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brods View Post
Please post a link to back this statement up.
http://www.vmmotori.it/en/03/00/dettaglio.jsp?id=129

I was wrong. I remember reading that GM's stake got off-loaded in 2009 during the bankruptcy, but that was obviously incorrect.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 09:20 AM   #91
Brods
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-07
Location: Salem, Mi
Posts: 681
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Read the article....it will answer all of your questions.
My point is still valid. If you really want we could generate a list of variables they didn’t or couldn’t account for, but I’m sure you’d argue every one. That they made a really dumb mistake like averaging the unloaded and loaded MPG numbers together rather than taking the total miles vs total fuel used shows they are not infallible.

As good as that test was, the only really unarguable data would be from fleet service where REAL operating costs are averaged over many trucks operating over tens of thousands of miles in REAL conditions. Of course you’d have to find a fleet that ran all three manufacturers’ vehicles….

You never did answer if your brother-in-law kept track of operating costs for his landscaping fleet and if so which, gas or diesel, was cheaper to operate.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
http://www.vmmotori.it/en/03/00/dettaglio.jsp?id=129

I was wrong. I remember reading that GM's stake got off-loaded in 2009 during the bankruptcy, but that was obviously incorrect.
Ok, so then it IS correct that the Dodge Ram ½ ton diesel engine will be supplied by a company half owned by Fiat and half owned by General Motors. Might as well have put a Dmax in it.
Tony--><--loyal Dodge owners
If I had a dollar for every CTD owner that said they bought a Cummins engine which just happened to come in a Dodge wrapper…
__________________
88 K5 350 700R4 241 D60 14B 42TSL

Last edited by Brods; February 15th, 2013 at 09:43 AM.
Brods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 09:37 AM   #92
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 30,153
iTrader: (46)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brods View Post
My point is still valid. If you really want we could generate a list of variables they didn’t or couldn’t account for, but I’m sure you’d argue every one. That they made a really dumb mistake like averaging the unloaded and loaded MPG numbers together rather than taking the total miles vs total fuel used shows they are not infallible.

As good as that test was, the only really unarguable data would be from fleet service where REAL operating costs are averaged over many trucks operating over tens of thousands of miles in REAL conditions. Of course you’d have to find a fleet that ran all three manufacturers’ vehicles….

You never did answer if your brother-in-law kept track of operating costs for his landscaping fleet and if so which, gas or diesel, was cheaper to operate.

Jeff wants to only think in a black and white scientific this test trumps all real world results argument. He doesn't care about real world numbers and real world situations from people who have no reason to lie.

I mean seriously, why would a friend of mine, who works at GM, tows his rig all over the place, brag that his duramax typically only averages about 8-10 mpg towing? He wouldn't, he's sharing an actual realistically true number from MULTIPLE trips per year and even per month, towing his rig.

Why would other friends who tow jeeps, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles, boats, etc. all brag their mileage down? Oh, I know, because its not scientific enough for Jeff's test....
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 10:03 AM   #93
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,875
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brods View Post
My point is still valid. If you really want we could generate a list of variables they didn’t or couldn’t account for, but I’m sure you’d argue every one. That they made a really dumb mistake like averaging the unloaded and loaded MPG numbers together rather than taking the total miles vs total fuel used shows they are not infallible.

As good as that test was, the only really unarguable data would be from fleet service where REAL operating costs are averaged over many trucks operating over tens of thousands of miles in REAL conditions. Of course you’d have to find a fleet that ran all three manufacturers’ vehicles….

You never did answer if your brother-in-law kept track of operating costs for his landscaping fleet and if so which, gas or diesel, was cheaper to operate.



Ok, so then it IS correct that the Dodge Ram ½ ton diesel engine will be supplied by a company half owned by Fiat and half owned by General Motors. Might as well have put a Dmax in it. Tony--><--loyal Dodge owners
If I had a dollar for every CTD owner that said they bought a Cummins engine which just happened to come in a Dodge wrapper…
Sorry, I didn't know I had some divine responsibility to answer you.

I'm sure he did keep track of it, however we are talking about something that took place a decade ago. I just know on fuel economy alone, the Duramax did win. I can pretty much guarantee overall cost it did not. We are also comparing two different model generations, model years, etc. so it isn't as even as a comparison as it could be.

The 7.4L GMC 3500 would have been cheaper to operate overall, for a few reasons. It was purchased used, the Duramax was purchased new. That alone sort of settles that debate.

Both trucks were only owned for a few years before he sold off the business. There was not enough time to recover any money from the expense of the truck, and even then with the extra up front cost of the truck it probably never would have happened when directly comparing it to the older GMC.

The Duramax was also at the dealership several times for the known Duramax fuel injector issues. The downtime incurred extra cost, whereas the 7.4L kept trucking along.

I'm sure there were other variables I'm not remembering, but directly comparing both trucks together, the gasser was cheaper to operate. My argument was never about diesels being cheaper to operate. It was just that diesels will see better fuel mileage loaded or unloaded compared to their direct gas counterpart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Jeff wants to only think in a black and white scientific this test trumps all real world results argument. He doesn't care about real world numbers and real world situations from people who have no reason to lie.

I mean seriously, why would a friend of mine, who works at GM, tows his rig all over the place, brag that his duramax typically only averages about 8-10 mpg towing? He wouldn't, he's sharing an actual realistically true number from MULTIPLE trips per year and even per month, towing his rig.

Why would other friends who tow jeeps, 4 wheelers, snowmobiles, boats, etc. all brag their mileage down? Oh, I know, because its not scientific enough for Jeff's test....
So that comparison test I posted wasn't real world numbers in as controlled of an environment as possible?

What is your friend comparing the Duramax mileage to? You're taking his number, and comparing it to what other people say, and basing your opinion on it. That's fine, however there is no control to compare both the gas and diesel mileages to. I'm not saying that the mileage he is getting is wrong. That very well could be what he is getting and I won't argue that. In those same circumstances, what would a gas engine be getting? Willing to bet it would be worse. You're leaving out the human element and a lot of other variables in all of this when trying to compare between trucks (different gearing, configurations, etc.) or humans (driving styles, speeds, routes, etc.).

Real world numbers and tests are great, but the scope is in that individual or vehicle only. There are several variables out there, so comparing one truck/driver another truck/driver without accounting for all of those variables will not result in an accurate comparison whatsoever.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; February 15th, 2013 at 10:07 AM.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 10:17 AM   #94
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 30,153
iTrader: (46)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
What is your friend comparing the Duramax mileage to? You're taking his number, and comparing it to what other people say, and basing your opinion on it. That's fine, however there is no control to compare both the gas and diesel mileages to. I'm not saying that the mileage he is getting is wrong. That very well could be what he is getting and I won't argue that. In those same circumstances, what would a gas engine be getting? Willing to bet it would be worse. You're leaving out the human element and a lot of other variables in all of this when trying to compare between trucks (different gearing, configurations, etc.) or humans (driving styles, speeds, routes, etc.).

Real world numbers and tests are great, but the scope is in that individual or vehicle only. There are several variables out there, so comparing one truck/driver another truck/driver without accounting for all of those variables will not result in an accurate comparison whatsoever.
I can tell you this. On a trip to the badlands one red crew cab 4wd duramax with one enclosed trailer followed by one red crew cab 6.0 with one enclosed trailer both trucks used almost identical amounts of fuel for the entire trip there and back. Both trucks within 1-2 model years of each other and same sized tires, neither lifted, neither engine modified.

Neither truck drafted another more significantly than the other.

I mean, I saw it with my own eyes, I didn't read it in a magazine or see it on the interweb.

Granted, it's only one test, but it was over a good number of miles in exact conditions.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 10:30 AM   #95
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 30,153
iTrader: (46)
Just for reference, I am only using this example due to the side by side testing of like trucks. But I hear it all the time from guys I talk to. Experienced it in my own trucks (though not direct comparisons), etc.

It's a moot point, but in my opinion the real world towing mileage of a diesel is not much better if at all than a gas truck, the advantage is in the empty mileage.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #96
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,875
iTrader: (22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Just for reference, I am only using this example due to the side by side testing of like trucks. But I hear it all the time from guys I talk to. Experienced it in my own trucks (though not direct comparisons), etc.

It's a moot point, but in my opinion the real world towing mileage of a diesel is not much better if at all than a gas truck, the advantage is in the empty mileage.
I think what you touched on earlier with forced induction is a very good point.

In terms of pure volumetric efficiency, an N/A motor has a much narrower range of volume than a turbo motor would. So there may be this additional variable out there based on speed and throttle that would differentiate gas and diesel motors even more.

Perhaps a gas and diesel truck at 75 MPH towing would result in the same fuel mileage if the diesel truck had to go into the boost more, but if they were both at 65 MPH, the gas engine mpg may increase a little bit, but the diesel may not have to get into the boost as much and would have even better mpg.

What would be the best comparison, would be to run a diesel truck engine and gas truck engine on an engine dyno through the same program of throttle and load enviornments to simulate towing and see what the outcome was.

Regardless, I do agree with you that real world results do matter more. I've seen parts pass validation testing without issue, only to start having issues in the field. It was still interesting to find an article comparison story that had the most comprehensive tests on mileage I've been able to find.

It's a half day for me here at work, so I'm going to save on to what brain cells I have left and get out of here.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #97
dline
Senior Member
 
dline's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Utica
Posts: 3,420
iTrader: (31)
Send a message via AIM to dline Send a message via Yahoo to dline
doesn't seem like the fuel mileage will be much better, than a gas 1/2 ton
dline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #98
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 2,854
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dline View Post
doesn't seem like the fuel mileage will be much better, than a gas 1/2 ton
The hemi ram 1500 4x4 with 8sp is supposed to get around 21mpg on the highway. The 3.0l diesel ram 1500 4x4 is supposed to get around 25mpg
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #99
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,555
iTrader: (3)
Wonder what the fast feedback packages will look like. Always fun to be the first guy on the block with the new toy.

FWIW, a few years ago (2006 or maybe 2007) I borrowed a 2500 Ram diesel, 6spd manual from a coworker to haul my TJ out to Silver Lake. 18 mpg. Hand calculated. Kept the speed reasonable. Set the cruise.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2013, 08:10 AM   #100
silveradoboy
Sam Brown
 
silveradoboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-28-12
Location: Waterford/Cheyboygan
Posts: 1,884
iTrader: (3)
For you wrangler lovers:

http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-te...&sfvc4enews=42
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkencityworker View Post
"BREAK HIS FACE"
silveradoboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.31245 seconds with 50 queries