Hey Chrysler guys... - Page 4 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

The Pub A friendly forum where everybody is nice, and will answer any questions you have about life.

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #61
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Was the weight identical, gearing identical, tranmission gearing identical? It makes no sense that a diesel would drop close to 50% in fuel efficiency when the gas engine would only drop 33%.
Nope, just real world averages from the many times I've towed things with diesel and gas trucks.

How's that CTS tow?

Last edited by kickstand; February 14th, 2013 at 02:15 PM.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:13 PM   #62
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 17,985
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Nope, just real world averages from the many times I've towed things with diesel and gas trucks.

How's that CTS tow?
Still, something is amiss. Transmission gearing or rear axle ratios are different, or some other variable. There is no way that diesel fuel having higher energy content than gasoline would drop that much in fuel efficiency given that all the other variables are damn near identical.

It tows your mother around just fine!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #63
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Still, something is amiss. Transmission gearing or rear axle ratios are different, or some other variable. There is no way that diesel fuel having higher energy content than gasoline would drop that much in fuel efficiency given that all the other variables are damn near identical.

It tows your mother around just fine!
Weird, when I talk to people who don't bullshit their mileage numbers they seem to be getting the exact same mileage towing as their gas conunterparts.

I'll leave it up to you though. You work for an auto manufacturer, I forgot you were an insider.

I've noticed the heavier the load the more it affects a diesel and the less it affects a big gas motor. (like most V-10 or 6.0, 8.1 3/4 trucks).

Have you ever towed anything with a diesel truck?

I put a ton of miles on a 96 cummins, a 98 6.5 turbo diesel, and a ton of different ford superduties while in high school and college, and the mileage drop in all of those trucks was similar when towing a significant load, where as the gas 3/4 ton trucks typically got somehwere around 8-12 loaded or empty no matter what.

Last edited by kickstand; February 14th, 2013 at 02:18 PM.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:24 PM   #64
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 17,985
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Weird, when I talk to people who don't bullshit their mileage numbers they seem to be getting the exact same mileage towing as their gas conunterparts.

I'll leave it up to you though. You work for an auto manufacturer, I forgot you were an insider.
Bar room conversations about gas mileage must outweigh chemistry and science. Who knew?

If you took to VW Jettas, one gas, and one diesel and both added 2,000 lbs. of weight, which car would get better mileage?

Now why would this be any different with two trucks, one diesel and the other gas?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #65
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 17,985
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Weird, when I talk to people who don't bullshit their mileage numbers they seem to be getting the exact same mileage towing as their gas conunterparts.

I'll leave it up to you though. You work for an auto manufacturer, I forgot you were an insider.

I've noticed the heavier the load the more it affects a diesel and the less it affects a big gas motor. (like most V-10 or 6.0, 8.1 3/4 trucks).

Have you ever towed anything with a diesel truck?

I put a ton of miles on a 96 cummins, a 98 6.5 turbo diesel, and a ton of different ford superduties while in high school and college, and the mileage drop in all of those trucks was similar when towing a significant load, where as the gas 3/4 ton trucks typically got somehwere around 8-12 loaded or empty no matter what.
Yes, I used to run a landscaping crew for my brother-in-law when he had his landscaping company. I would often swap between a 98 GMC 3500 with a 7.4L, and a 2001 3/4 ton Duramax and towed two trailers with each, depending on what crew was going where. My brother-in-law always monitored mileage and fuel costs, and the diesel always out-performed the 7.4L in fuel efficiency.

I just can't see why a diesel would have a much higher drop in fuel effiency compared to a gas engine when towing the same load. I don't have as much first hand experience, I fully admit that. Other than what others have experienced, I'm not finding a rational scientific explanation as to why a diesel would lose so much efficiency.

I am in no way calling you wrong by the way. I just want to find an explanation.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; February 14th, 2013 at 02:38 PM.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #66
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,224
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

For what it's worth.

My 03 Duramax used to get 20ish unloaded and somewhere around 12 with the camper on, flat towing, or with the car hauler. (IIRC)

My 07 Duramax got around 15-16 unloaded and less than 12 loaded. (IIRC)

Kerry's 07 Powerstroke gets like 13(City)-16(Hwy @65) unloaded and like 10-11 no matter what its pulling, camper, empty trailer, JK on trailer, it doesn't matter.

I also used to tow a lot with an 01 Duramax that had similar numbers to my 03.
mschaffer66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #67
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 17,985
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Finally found a good comprehensive article: http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....nomy-test.html

This is the full start page for the entire comparison: http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....-approach.html

The diesels all outperformed the gas engines in fuel economy in all areas.


__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 03:02 PM   #68
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Bar room conversations about gas mileage must outweigh chemistry and science. Who knew?

If you took to VW Jettas, one gas, and one diesel and both added 2,000 lbs. of weight, which car would get better mileage?

Now why would this be any different with two trucks, one diesel and the other gas?
come on mr. science, you aren't also factoring in the exponential wind resistance of towing a trailer.

I don't have a logical explantion for why diesels get about the same loaded mileage as a gas truck and then much better unloaded mileage, I just know its a fairly consistent train of thought amongst people I don't believe to bullshit their mileage numbers.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #69
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Your article, although showing that the diesels get a bit better towing mileage than most people I know claim, showed my exact point, a higher drop in mileage from diesels than gas motors typically have.


Not a huge difference, but still consistent difference.

Last edited by kickstand; February 14th, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 03:26 PM   #70
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Madison Heights, MI
Posts: 17,985
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
Your article, although showing that the diesels get a bit better towing mileage than most people I know claim, showed my exact point, a higher drop in mileage from diesels than gas motors typically have.


Not a huge difference, but still consistent difference.
By about 5-7% difference from their gas counterparts, not the 23% difference you were originally highlighting.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #71
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
By about 5-7% difference from their gas counterparts, not the 23% difference you were originally highlighting.
I'm only sharing personal experience from real world examples, not a magazine article I read about on the internet where I know nothing of the test performed.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 03:52 PM   #72
Brods
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-07
Location: Salem, Mi
Posts: 704
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Yes, I used to run a landscaping crew for my brother-in-law when he had his landscaping company. I would often swap between a 98 GMC 3500 with a 7.4L, and a 2001 3/4 ton Duramax and towed two trailers with each, depending on what crew was going where. My brother-in-law always monitored mileage and fuel costs, and the diesel always out-performed the 7.4L in fuel efficiency.

...
Did he track operating, maintenance, repair, etc costs and if so which did better overall.

As far as the VW Motori company according to Wikipedia
VM_Motori VM_Motori

Quote:
History

VM Motori was founded by two entrepreneurs, Claudio Vancini and Ugo Martelli (hence the "VM") in 1947.
VM merged with Stabilimenti Meccanici Triestini in Trieste in 1971, then Finmeccanica took a majority stake in the combined company.
In 1989, Finmeccanica restructured, selling its stake in VM Motori to company managers and Midland Montague in a leveraged buyout, leaving the company with its single Cento plant.
Detroit Diesel Corporation (DDC) bought VM Motori in 1995.
In 2000 the DDC was purchased by DaimlerChrysler AG.
In 2003, Penske Corporation purchased a 51% stake in VM Motori; in 2007, Penske bought the remaining 49% from DaimlerChrysler and subsequently sold 50% of it to General Motors.[1] As of 2007, both deals were awaiting European regulatory approval and the value of the deal was not known.
In September 2008, GAZ Group announced plans to purchase a 50% stake from Penske Corp.[2] but ultimately cancelled them in February 2009.[3] January 11, 2011 Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera published news that Fiat S.p.A. is about to purchase 50% stake from Penske.[4] In February 11 Fiat Powertrain Technologies confirmed it has bought the 50 percent stake.[5]
So who owns it now?? The above implies GM owns 50% and Fiat owns 50%. When did GM bail?
Brods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #73
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,224
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Finally found a good comprehensive article: http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....nomy-test.html

This is the full start page for the entire comparison: http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....-approach.html

The diesels all outperformed the gas engines in fuel economy in all areas.



Thats actually kind of a neat comparison.

It shows that the truck with the smallest motor gets the best unloaded mileage, but takes the biggest hit when towing and that the truck with the biggest motor has the worst unloaded MPG, but takes the smallest hit towing.

Brand preference aside it seems like the Dodge would be the best commuter truck that tows very little, the Ford the best truck that tows a lot, and the Chevy as the best middle of the road option.

I was kinda surprised that the Cummins had the worst economy of all the diesels. I kinda thought when it came to the latest generation the Powerstroke was the suck for MPG...

I like too how it really illustrates the previous posts about how the slight increase in mileage is typically not worth the cost and hassle of owning a diesel for most people.

I have to say, nice find GMonkey :)
mschaffer66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #74
93trackaddict
Senior Member
 
93trackaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-14-08
Location: quincy michigan
Posts: 519
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Was the weight identical, gearing identical, tranmission gearing identical? It makes no sense that a diesel would drop close to 50% in fuel efficiency when the gas engine would only drop 33%.
TORQUE! That is the answer
93trackaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #75
93trackaddict
Senior Member
 
93trackaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-14-08
Location: quincy michigan
Posts: 519
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

One thing Ive noticed in regards to fuel economy is that diesels suck larger amounts of fuel at idle than gassers
I would venture to say it is due to the quantity it takes to push a diesels pistons
93trackaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #76
93trackaddict
Senior Member
 
93trackaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-14-08
Location: quincy michigan
Posts: 519
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

In regards to price, it seems that everyone is under the misconception the general truck buyers main concern is the total price of a truck
In the new truck market sales are easily made to customers based on how well a payment fits their budget
Im sure there will be more than enough buyers for 1/2 ton diesels
93trackaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:32 PM   #77
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,224
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93trackaddict View Post
In regards to price, it seems that everyone is under the misconception the general truck buyers main concern is the total price of a truck
In the new truck market sales are easily made to customers based on how well a payment fits their budget
Im sure there will be more than enough buyers for 1/2 ton diesels
That's because the general public is generally stupid...

These are probably the same people that take a 96 month loan to drop their payments an extra $20 a month too...
mschaffer66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #78
firestorm
Member
 
Join Date: 07-03-12
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 62
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Fuel economy is going to vary more in a boosted engine than a N/A engine. I would imagine a great amount of the variance in avg. MPG with the turbo diesels is due to the turbo spooling up to make more power. More air means more fuel, which means less MPG. I've seen more than my share of these trucks with a big ol' trailer behind them keep up with traffic when the light turns green. Maybe people are more prone to tapping to that diesel torque, adding to the fuel consumption.
firestorm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #79
93trackaddict
Senior Member
 
93trackaddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-14-08
Location: quincy michigan
Posts: 519
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
that's because the general public is generally stupid...

These are probably the same people that take a 96 month loan to drop their payments an extra $20 a month too...
exactly
93trackaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 06:06 PM   #80
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,123
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firestorm View Post
Fuel economy is going to vary more in a boosted engine than a N/A engine. I would imagine a great amount of the variance in avg. MPG with the turbo diesels is due to the turbo spooling up to make more power. More air means more fuel, which means less MPG. I've seen more than my share of these trucks with a big ol' trailer behind them keep up with traffic when the light turns green. Maybe people are more prone to tapping to that diesel torque, adding to the fuel consumption.
You bring up a good point, diesels tend to get better mileage unloaded because they can just lug along on their long strokes at low boost with minimal fuel intake.

Once you load them up and add some resistance you start boosting and adding a lot more fuel to the equation to pull your load.
kickstand is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.36549 seconds with 81 queries