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Old January 16th, 2013, 05:56 AM   #1
cerial
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Default 2.5 ton axle shaft question

Just the facts to start off with:

Axle type. Straight rear axle 2.5 ton top loader
Passenger side drop with the pinion towards the drivers side.
F-550 calipers
3/8 thick Mohawk cover
Chuck girdled for strength
Non selectable hubs
22" rim 11" backspacing
40" tire
Rim/tire total width 12"
Rear engine with flywheel towards driver
Starter on drivers side
Low profile pump and Remote oil filter with the lines staying within block profile
Block hug headers with passenger side exhaust running down block side
Axle trussed at top, rear, and front only for maximum clearance.
No pinion break on rear axle (parking pinion break on front axle)
Maximum pinion input 7368 lbs 5230 rpm
Maximum axle shaft forces 49,512 lbs 778 rpm
ARB locker
16 spline(due to locker)
Open to different axle shaft thicknesses
Total Axle width 72"(including studs)



I need to know if it is possible or has been done where someone stuffed a 2.5 chuck completely on one side of the axle giving room for a disk breaks only. The drive shaft edge would be 3" from the tire edge under full pressure.

This means the drivers axle shaft would be 50-55" long(maybe longer).

Doing this would do a few things. It would let me move the motor back up to another 7", would let me lower the COG with the oil pan at 22", with part of the pig inside the wheel it would give great clearance.




So, I assumed this was just possible and kept my crazy ideas to myself. I never thought I might have a issue actually finding someone that would make a long axle shaft for the Drivers side.

Now that I am actually saving cash towards doing this and looking closer at the axle I have found out that the axle shaft might ruin the above plans. Hopefully I am just looking in the wrong places.

There is a concern with the shaft twisting/sheering. It seems with the right materials and treatment that would not be a issue with the low forces(compared to axle size) I am using.

Thanks for any reassurance.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 06:06 AM   #2
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shake head ...........
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:27 AM   #3
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dont see why you cant do it but wouldnt having such a long shaft and then a shaft so short it makes a asian look hung cause problems with the long side twisting a bunch and the short side beeing a weak link? i didnt sleep much go easy on me if i seam retarded
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Old January 17th, 2013, 08:40 AM   #4
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Thanks for your input in2deep. The shaft twisting is a concern after thinking this over for a while I thimk by using a inner bearing I can eliniate most of the twisting. To further reduce the chance of breakage I will have the machine shop start with a rod slightly larger then 2 inches and mill it down to 2 inches. Then I will have them taper down the inside and spline it to 16 splines and work with the arb. On the outside I will have them go 47 splines to slide into a flange.

The inner bearing will be a pita to replace but does seem the best way.


Now I just need to find a machine shop with the capabilities to assure me they can build the above shaft.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #5
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I am just going to continue forward with this by building a lightweight mock housing while saving cash to have one of the major guys build the housing.

I am sure there is a machine shop that can make it work. I do not know about treating the medal afterwards though which is really why I was looking towards specialized axle shaft shops. If I go with a machine shop I will just need to pota to get a material which can stand the forces and shock forces this thing sill see.
Whatever needs to be done will it is just a manner of time to save up the cash.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #6
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How would a inner bearing eliminate twisting of the shaft? It is still going to have the twisting forces applied to it, the bearing may hold it from walking around, but if you are gonna shear the shaft from twisting forces I dont see how that would help.

I really thing you are over thinking this, you are not going to be close to the limit of a 2 in axle shaft....

I did a Google search and found a few places that can machine/heat treat Rockwell axle shafts.


IF you really wanted to run something like this, I would have to imagine you would be better off with a custom 14 bolt or equivalent axle. They would be smaller/lighter and able to easily hold up to 40 in tires...
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Old January 18th, 2013, 03:14 AM   #7
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Russ gearheart should be able to make you what your looking for or have a better idea that will get your motor where u want it and still keep the 2.5ton axle.
His shop number is (269) 278-6945 call between 7 and 4 he takes a lunch at noon. His website is gearheart engineering.com
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Old January 18th, 2013, 06:52 AM   #8
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I am using the toploader for the ratio more then anything. The fact that I only need to flip the hubs, install stronger shafts ane disk breaks on the front helped make the choice easier.

Using this axle with my 12 forward 3 reverse speed drivetrain I end up with a 99:1 craw and a top speed of 100 mph at 3100 rpm.
The only downside is that I can not run hubs because they would stick out like a target. But I decided that the marginal increase in mileage was not worth putting weak links into the system when I designed my single speed awd transfer case.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:02 AM   #9
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Call Luke at Red Barn Customs. He will tell you weather you can or not 100%. He builds 2.5tons for people all over the country. Including KOH. He knows his shit.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:28 AM   #10
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It makes no sense to run a Rockwell with 40" tires. You simply don't need it. You also don't need it for the ratio. If you really have the gearing options (12 forward, 3 reverse), you will not like the super low ratio of the Rockwell. Simply put, there's no purpose for it in the offroad world. Every time I see someone with super low gearing, they can't get out of their own way because they can't generate any wheel speed when needed. The additional downside to this is that you are spending a bunch of cash for something you don't need.

If you are dead set on doing this, contact Moser. They can make you a custom axle shaft.

If my math is correct, you expect to be putting 49,512 pounds (inch pounds or foot pounds?) on the axle shaft at 92 MPH?
40" tire = 10 1/2 ft circumfrence
778 rpm = 8147 ft per minute
/ 5280 ft per mile = 1.54
x 60 mph = 92

The only time you will be running that fast, there will be virtually no force on the axle shaft.

Finally, why do you list all the useless shit like block hugger headers and diff covers when you are asking a question about who can make you an axle shaft?
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Last edited by whiterhino; January 18th, 2013 at 07:36 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:51 AM   #11
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when will cerial finally get a retard badge?

Better yet, when will he just be deemed a troll?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #12
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The 99/1 is the lowest craw and is really more for hill control. The super low and super high will not be used much. When I need them I will have them

I never said 40's were the biggest I was going. Thats the size for on the road to the trail. The street wheels are 11" in. If i go wheels out The tire size can go over 50" easily.

I do not see myself doing that now or any time soon due to the sheer cost of those tires/rims. But, later who knows. It is about having options.


RBC is less a hour from this thing I am ssving up $$$ before calling them or the other major player who is within 2 hours away
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #13
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I think you can hard mount the diff to the inside of the wheel. Then put a u-joint next to the diff to connect the other axle shaft. Then you can still turn.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #14
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I say go for it...sounds like a great plan and I look foward to seeing it in action
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #15
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Just make sure to double weld everything.

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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:40 AM   #16
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Just make sure to double weld everything.

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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:46 AM   #17
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Hmm, 7368 ft-lbs of torque @ 5230 RPM = 7337 horsepower.

I have underestimated you. If you are actually running a Nitromethane top fuel engine, you have my respect, sir! I am guessing the 12 speeds come from stacked lenco boxes.

Regarding the question, there are buggies built by people who understand things like how much force you can actually generate with real world tires, and such. They have run Ford 9" based aftermarket assemblies with the diff pushed all the way to one side, exactly as you mention, for those reasons.



*sigh* why do we even do this...

I've got the gear calculator here from when I still had my Deuce & a half with those axles. 6.72 gears in them. The deuce has 40" tires stock, and shows me you need a 0.55:1 or so overdrive to hit 3100 rpm @ 100mph. So you are going to maybe have 200-250 ft lbs output from the transfer case at wide open throttle, split into two axles. You might find it difficult to actually push 100MPH completely floored (killing any fantasies you have of good MPGs). Any old Dana 30/35 combo can handle that, lol...

I cant want to see the suspension you design to handle 100 MPH with the unsprung mass of rockwells and 40s. with just a buggy on top of it.

So, you want to do this much custom work, just to reuse the stock front housing? You are going to flip the hubs to take it down to 69" WMS-WMS? and then run 11" backspacing rims? So you are running like a 40x12" wide tire, on maybe an 7-8" wide rim (if you are running something like a swamper, then I really want to see you go 100mph, lol...). You've got like 42-43" between the sidewalls at straight ahead steering, and are narrower than a standard Jeep running around on 31x10.5s.

Thats the same spacing bewteen the front tires as my old narrow track CJ5 running 34x9.5 skinnies. Those had to limit the steering stops to not hang up on the front suspension. Moving up to 40" diameters will have no steering capability.

Last edited by Haggar; January 18th, 2013 at 08:57 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
The 99/1 is the lowest craw and is really more for hill control. The super low and super high will not be used much. When I need them I will have them

I never said 40's were the biggest I was going. Thats the size for on the road to the trail. The street wheels are 11" in. If i go wheels out The tire size can go over 50" easily.

I do not see myself doing that now or any time soon due to the sheer cost of those tires/rims. But, later who knows. It is about having options.


RBC is less a hour from this thing I am ssving up $$$ before calling them or the other major player who is within 2 hours away
Who is the other major player? Dave?
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Hmm, 7368 ft-lbs of torque @ 5230 RPM = 7337 horsepower.
aaaaahhhhahahahaha I totally overlooked that. Of course, we are assuming ft-lbs & not in-lb (per my earlier question) which would lower the HP to a manageable 611 HP.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
The 99/1 is the lowest craw and is really more for hill control. The super low and super high will not be used much. When I need them I will have them

I never said 40's were the biggest I was going. Thats the size for on the road to the trail. The street wheels are 11" in. If i go wheels out The tire size can go over 50" easily.

I do not see myself doing that now or any time soon due to the sheer cost of those tires/rims. But, later who knows. It is about having options.


RBC is less a hour from this thing I am ssving up $$$ before calling them or the other major player who is within 2 hours away
Assuming you have perfect traction. If I am trying to crawl a hill, my limiting factor is NEVER ratio. It's traction.
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