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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:26 AM   #61
Deke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
Yes, they started as eye witness accounts told by word of mouth through the generations until they were finally put to paper. I do not doubt Christ existed or his apostles. I don't doubt that he believed he was the son of God. And I certainly don't doubt that Christ believed he was giving his life for the rest of us either. It's not hard to accept this much. But I'm afraid that is as far as I'm willing to believe/have faith.
With the research that humans have done into it, I couldnt agree more. He may of been blown out of proportion throughout the times also.

Look at nepolian(sp) Just the mere mention of his name and you're thinking "o that short frenchy" In fact he was 5'7-5'8 and of average statue for the french of that time.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:31 AM   #62
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I was raised Christian, forced to go to church and classes every week for years. I am a non-believer now. There is too much stuff that the bible teaches that just doesn't make any sense to me. So if heaven actually exists then I guess I am going to hell. Doesn't matter, I will be dead anyway.

Last edited by fittergirl; December 21st, 2005 at 10:34 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:49 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
But I'm afraid that is as far as I'm willing to believe/have faith.
If that is where you are, no hate from me brother!

If you are willing to still figure it out, I think you are in a better psition than most.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by fittergirl
There is too much stuff that the bible teaches that just doesn't make any sense to me.
I think this nails it on the head and is what confuses most. But think of it this way. How much do you or even a NASA engineer really know about the Universe? If you had all the answers in a single book, even then could you comprehend everything? Given our nature of not trusting what is given to us, would we accept the answers without a doubt.

Here is my stance, the stance of a scientist using scientific logic. Anything is possible until it can be tested and proven false.

So my challenge to everyone reading this thread. Can you, without a fraction of a doubt, say that anything recorded in the Bible is incorrect? If so, please provide your PROOF. :dunie:
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:58 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7
I think this nails it on the head and is what confuses most. But think of it this way. How much do you or even a NASA engineer really know about the Universe? If you had all the answers in a single book, even then could you comprehend everything? Given our nature of not trusting what is given to us, would we accept the answers without a doubt.

Here is my stance, the stance of a scientist using scientific logic. Anything is possible until it can be tested and proven false.

So my challenge to everyone reading this thread. Can you, without a fraction of a doubt, say that anything recorded in the Bible is incorrect? If so, please provide your PROOF. :dunie:

here here!!

Hell, we can't even figure out beyond a doubt how the damn Egyptians built the Pyramids without the wheel.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:06 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7
I think this nails it on the head and is what confuses most. But think of it this way. How much do you or even a NASA engineer really know about the Universe? If you had all the answers in a single book, even then could you comprehend everything? Given our nature of not trusting what is given to us, would we accept the answers without a doubt.

Here is my stance, the stance of a scientist using scientific logic. Anything is possible until it can be tested and proven false.

So my challenge to everyone reading this thread. Can you, without a fraction of a doubt, say that anything recorded in the Bible is incorrect? If so, please provide your PROOF. :dunie:
On the other hand, can you prove without a doubt that everything within the bible is correct? If so, please make me a man of faith and shock the world. I'll give you a hint, the reason this is an on going subject is NO ONE has done it yet. Proven, nor disproven it.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:09 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Deke
On the other hand, can you prove without a doubt that everything within the bible is correct? If so, please make me a man of faith and shock the world. I'll give you a hint, the reason this is an on going subject is NO ONE has done it yet. Proven, nor disproven it.
Uh, no. As stated above. They are not testable theories (including evolution); therefore, they cannot be proven without a doubt. :miff:
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:10 AM   #68
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Uh, no. As stated above. They are not testable theories (including evolution); therefore, they cannot be proven without a doubt. :miff:
Common religous practice when questioned about the infaulubility of their bible they put up smoke and mirrors and redirect the question.

Without using faith, can you prove to me that anything said in the bible that happens after death or the begining of time is correct?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:16 AM   #69
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Can you prove to me without a doubt that we evolved from single-celled organisms? No, because it is not a testable theory.

The similarities between species today could be a result of
1) diverging species from a common ancestor or
2) intellegent design with common traits.

Yet the school systems teach evolution more as fact rather than an un-testable theory.

So who's putting up the smoke and mirrors again? I at least acknowledge that anything is possbile until proven false. Do you disagree?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:19 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7
Can you prove to me without a doubt that we evolved from single-celled organisms? No, because it is not a testable theory.

The similarities between species today could be a result of
1) diverging species from a common ancestor or
2) intellegent design with common traits.

Yet the school systems teach evolution more as fact rather than an un-testable theory.

So who's putting up the smoke and mirrors again? I at least acknowledge that anything is possbile until proven false. Do you disagree?
It is not a testable theory, but neither is "poof" we are here. The bible says there is NO other way. thats the point.

They teach it as a theory. Its the mentality of the bible thumpers that its taught as a fact because it imposes apon their beliefs. If the kids listened to the teachers they would realize its a theory and not a presentation of a false fact.

When the religon states flat out there is no other way no matter what, what is that? faith. and faith is not science
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:21 AM   #71
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I find it to be cowardly in this aspect . You need heaven , you cant deal with the fact your just another animal and will parish . You the " human " are above all other animals and get a special end . I dont think so .

Christ died for you , so what ? so you can pull tons of shit your whole life as most do then figure your a shoe in for heaven since you trust in God ? sounds like an excuse to pull bull shit on other humans to me .

If i live a cleaner more just life then the next guy , do lots of good deeds and help others while he is a flipping jerk but he trust in God that means im ass out and he is in ? Fine i dont want to go there then .

Ill take it to the bibble . God created me in his own image right ? Cool then he would certainly understand my points of view and not hold it against me now would he .

I am one with the earth , i hold my self no better then your pet , the grass in your yard . I am no different or worse then you . I can except that i will parish and exsist no more . I came i lived i died . The need for eternal life to me is a unwillingness to except your demise . Our higher education leaves us humans feeling supierior , i dont except this logic that because i have more ability to learn then the dog does i should have eternal life :gman:

G man what happened the the Indian ways , I am by no means a historian of american Indian beliefs but from stories heard I'd have to believe Indians have a strong belief of the after life and what they do in this earth directly effects what they will do in the afterlife .

By the way I am Catholic by the choice of my parents and in my younger years followed the catholic teachings , I am a believer but sadly at this time I am not a partisapator.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:24 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
It is not a testable theory, but neither is "poof" we are here. The bible says there is NO other way. thats the point.

They teach it as a theory. Its the mentality of the bible thumpers that its taught as a fact because it imposes apon their beliefs. If the kids listened to the teachers they would realize its a theory and not a presentation of a false fact.

When the religon states flat out there is no other way no matter what, what is that? faith. and faith is not science
Not exactly. The court case yesterday as an example. A group in Pennsylvania wanted intellegent design to be taught in addition to evolution, not in place of it. Yet the courts found that intelligent design cannot be taught in school. The schools do not teach evolution as one of many theories. It is the ONLY theory they teach, and they don't discuss how it cannot be tested.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:26 AM   #73
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I am a believer but sadly at this time I am not a partisapator.
What does this mean? Does Christ not walk with you now, even if you do not regularly attend Mass?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:26 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7
Not exactly. The court case yesterday as an example. A group in Pennsylvania wanted intellegent design to be taught in addition to evolution, not in place of it. Yet the courts found that intelligent design cannot be taught in school. The schools do not teach evolution as one of many theories. It is the ONLY theory they teach, and they don't discuss how it cannot be tested.

No, the Penn case was declaring the reading of the statement that other ideas as to the origin of life exist and for students wishing to learn them to go read the book. The school made no attempt to actually "teach" inteligent design.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:29 AM   #75
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No, the Penn case was declaring the reading of the statement that other ideas as to the origin of life exist and for students wishing to learn them to go read the book. The school made no attempt to actually "teach" inteligent design.
I think we are saying the same thing. The court said there will be no reference to the theory of intelligent design; but that teaching the theory of evolution is A.O.K.

Now THAT is smoke and mirrors.....

Last edited by amc78cj7; December 21st, 2005 at 11:58 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:34 AM   #76
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Greetings! Chiming in here.

I think its important to understand that the Bible is book of faith, not a book of history.

We have to have faith because, as humans, we cannot fully comprehend God and his will. I look at it as when you try to communicate with you pet. The pet doesn't always fully understand what you mean, but it is able to understand some of it.

The Old Testament has many scriptures which point to the coming of Christ.
As Christians, we are able to celebrate His death because there is now a way to be closer to God despite our sinfullness and non-comprehension.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 11:40 AM   #77
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Wow good convo going on here, i just spent literally 6 hours talking with my supervisor about why i believe what i believe.(which is pretty twisted in its own right)...anyway....found it kinda funny that you all where discussing basically the same thing as julie and I..at sorta the same time...

i wont bore you but, i am a follower of Christ, i believe in his death and ressurection....however i am dis-enfranchised with the current state of most churchs and their people. so i get rather picky when choosing a place to worship and fellowship with other followers of Christ....I wont shove it down your throat, but if any of you ever wanna check out a decent church...Check out Genesis The Church in Royal Oak, we dont wear sunday dress(you can if you wanna). jeans and t's are fine..and we play guitar/bass and drums....and occasionally it gets loud..sorry.... and we have a lot of artists so some of our functional services get rather interesting...no pressure..real relaxed atmosphere.....i know its a blatant plug...but i figured i would offer....plus if you do come and hit the right service then i can finally post in the sightings forum....hehehehehe

keep it going ..this is good...

Maier
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Old December 21st, 2005, 12:13 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Labla
Greetings! Chiming in here.

I think its important to understand that the Bible is book of faith, not a book of history.
Bob, if you can't find history in the scriptures, then I doubt you have read them. You implication here is that is it just a made up storybook, which is not the case. I agree that it is laregely faith, but not limited to faith.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 12:19 PM   #79
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I really enjoy watching mysteries of the bible on the History channel. They have proven a lot of the things in the bible that at controversial could have happened. The bible is definitely a history book.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 12:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Deke
within the moral standards of society

That, is an oxymoron. Todays society is far from moral. But folks love to feel good when they feel the same as the rest of "society" (ie, what the press wants you to believe is right). As a Christian, I find my morals drastically different than "societies" morals.
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