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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:25 AM   #41
Dave Kerwin
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Originally Posted by Lothos
So let me see if I understand this Christians. You believe you will go to heaven if follow in Christs teachings. You believe he died for all of our sins. And he is the son of God?

Aside from the son part, I think this is pretty much identical to the Islam beliefs. Going to "heaven" by following in Muhammads teachings etc...
They are very different. Let me give you the difference between christianity and ALL other major world religions, ready?

All major world religions besides christianity: If you do good, heaven. If you do bad, hell. It is all based on your performance.

The Christian message: You and I never can be good enough to be perfect as God is perfect. So it is not about what you can do, it is about what Jesus has done (ie, died, shed blood for the forgiveness of sins, thereby making us perfect and pleasing to God).

Does this distinction make sense?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:31 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by xjjeepthing
People believe in what they want to believe. Can we leave it at that, i mean does it really matter anyway.
I think it does matter, if after you die, you find out that God was real. If God does not exist, then you are right, it never mattered. But if he DOES exist, then it matters more than you are willing to realize.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:35 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
They are very different. Let me give you the difference between christianity and ALL other major world religions, ready?

All major world religions besides christianity: If you do good, heaven. If you do bad, hell. It is all based on your performance.

The Christian message: You and I never can be good enough to be perfect as God is perfect. So it is not about what you can do, it is about what Jesus has done (ie, died, shed blood for the forgiveness of sins, thereby making us perfect and pleasing to God).

Does this distinction make sense?
I disagree a bit on the do good part and do bad as far as all other religions. But that is more semantics probably. I am confused though about the "it is not about what you can do, it is about what Jesus has done" part. Is that to say nothing a person can do in their life matters as far as getting into heaven?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
I disagree a bit on the do good part and do bad as far as all other religions. But that is more semantics probably. I am confused though about the "it is not about what you can do, it is about what Jesus has done" part. Is that to say nothing a person can do in their life matters as far as getting into heaven?
Yes. Read my posts on page three. Still, it's your choice to hear the message or throw it in the round file.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:41 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
I disagree a bit on the do good part and do bad as far as all other religions. But that is more semantics probably.

I am confused though about the "it is not about what you can do, it is about what Jesus has done" part. Is that to say nothing a person can do in their life matters as far as getting into heaven?
Likely semantics, yes, but take a closer look, that is basically the gist.

BINGO! It is as you say. I am a sinner, and nothing in me is good enough to earn heaven. But the good news is that the blood that was shed covers my sin, making me perfect before God, pleasing and acceptable to him. But don't get confused on this, a Christian is not to abuse this gift of God by living wildly, instead, we are instructed VERY strongly to live as Jesus did. FAITH is the basis of eternal life, not good deeds. But let me also say that faith without works is dead.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
Likely semantics, yes, but take a closer look, that is basically the gist.

BINGO! It is as you say. I am a sinner, and nothing in me is good enough to earn heaven. But the good news is that the blood that was shed covers my sin, making me perfect before God, pleasing and acceptable to him. But don't get confused on this, a Christian is not to abuse this gift of God by living wildly, instead, we are instructed VERY strongly to live as Jesus did. FAITH is the basis of eternal life, not good deeds. But let me also say that faith without works is dead.
The problem with that is it stems from the bible and humans. Human interaction is assumed flawed untill proved otherwise.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
I think it does matter, if after you die, you find out that God was real. If God does not exist, then you are right, it never mattered. But if he DOES exist, then it matters more than you are willing to realize.
And what are you thoughts on the flip side of the arguement.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Deke
The problem with that is it stems from the bible and humans. Human interaction is assumed flawed untill proved otherwise.
So does ANY religious document EVER. Baby = dumped with bath water.

Faith has to kick in somewhere Deke.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:56 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
So does ANY religious document EVER. Baby = dumped with bath water.

Faith has to kick in somewhere Deke.
And thats the fundamental problem. Its wishy washy at best without faith.

If you removed the faith element from religon you have a bunch of kids stories. Where is the transition from a fabel to a religous document? How do I,you,we know that the person who said.."this is the word of god" made the right choice?
What if green eggs and ham is really gods word and the bible was some long winded "b" movie from the 300s...?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:02 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
And what are you thoughts on the flip side of the arguement.
Flip side meaning why it matters that God exists?

If God exists, we gotta answer to him. My answer to God is that my sins have been forgiven in Christ, and I believe he will gladly welcome me into his heaven. For the muslim, they will say that they followed muhammed and did they best they could, and will cross their fingers that they did more good than bad. Surely the Christian and Muslim cannot both be right at the same time. There are plenty of false teachign out there, it is up to the individual to understand and decide. Jesus is the ONLY one to claim to be the ONLY way, and his life is a testimony to his claim. From what I gather, he is the real deal, and I take my faith and grant it unto him who died and rose again. To me it seems logically impossible to get to heaven by any other means than by Jesus. If this really is the truth, then me personally, I want to be in heaven.

Cliff notes: It matters because eternity is at stake.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:05 AM   #51
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Why argue you guys. Considering religion, evolution, ancient history are not testable theories you can argue both sides 'til you're blue in the face and never find resolution.

Here is what we do know. The bible is a very thorough historical document, with many points (but not all) that can be proven accurate (lineage, etc.). Christian believe that 1 sin is as bad as 100, and that no human is free from sin and the blood of Christ is the only way to be freed from your sin. If you'd like to find out more, visit your local church every so often and listen to the sermons. But I guarantee you will not find the answers by debating both sides of the coin. Theologeans have spent their entire scholastic lives for millenia and still cannot find an absolute, unenquivical answer. I doubt the debate of our history will be solved on an internet forum. :miff:
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:07 AM   #52
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I think Chris Rock said it right in Dogma, it's one thing to have faith in ideals, but having a belief structure is too much.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:09 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
Flip side meaning why it matters that God exists?

If God exists, we gotta answer to him. My answer to God is that my sins have been forgiven in Christ, and I believe he will gladly welcome me into his heaven. For the muslim, they will say that they followed muhammed and did they best they could, and will cross their fingers that they did more good than bad. Surely the Christian and Muslim cannot both be right at the same time. There are plenty of false teachign out there, it is up to the individual to understand and decide. Jesus is the ONLY one to claim to be the ONLY way, and his life is a testimony to his claim. From what I gather, he is the real deal, and I take my faith and grant it unto him who died and rose again. To me it seems logically impossible to get to heaven by any other means than by Jesus. If this really is the truth, then me personally, I want to be in heaven.

Cliff notes: It matters because eternity is at stake.
Its like I have Dave trained. Cliffs notes and all.

I understand what you are saying, but with your faith in it you see it differently. If you live this life for the next life and it doesnt actually exsist, then you still lived a good life by not only the religons standards, but your own.
My lack of faith means I live probally close to the same life as you within the moral standards of society but I wouldnt get into heaven. I still just cant lie to myself and have this fake faith.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7
Why argue you guys. Considering religion, evolution, ancient history are not testable theories you can argue both sides 'til you're blue in the face and never find resolution.

Here is what we do know. The bible is a very thorough historical document, with many points (but not all) that can be proven accurate (lineage, etc.). Christian believe that 1 sin is as bad as 100, and that no human is free from sin and the blood of Christ is the only way to be freed from your sin. If you'd like to find out more, visit your local church every so often and listen to the sermons. But I guarantee you will not find the answers by debating both sides of the coin. Theologeans have spent their entire scholastic lives for millenia and still cannot find an absolute, unenquivical answer. I doubt the debate of our history will be solved on an internet forum. :miff:
From the very start we are condemed by the teaching of that historical document. I didnt do anything and I'm already damned. Thats a bit of a turn off to it all.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:16 AM   #55
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I believe you can discuss religion without if everyone is adult enough to respect each other's opinions. This thread seems to be very respectful so far.
I was raised Christian, but as I got older I began to see that there are a ton of different religions and they all have pieces of the truth. I believe that there is a god, but I don't believe in a traditional heaven and hell. Many times I have thought that our time on earth might actually be "hell". A few weeks ago my aunt died, and the pastor said "she has gone to a better place." I am not sure that i believe she went to a better place. I think that our time on earth is precious and if we are really leaving to a "better place" why try to keep people who are sick or dying alive?
I asked Mike "would it have been better if I died?" (he didn't like the question :miff: ) but my thought process was that if dying is truly better, did I do the wrong thing in fighting to recover when I was sick this year? I think that living is better.
Another thing that throws me off about traditional religion is that no religion preaches violence and hate. All of the great prophets preached love and compassion, but most religious people tend to be the most ready to condem and fight people.
I am not a Christian, but i respect people's choice to be a christian. I also don't believe you can be an evil person your whole life and on your death bed ask for forgiveness and be unpunished for all of your sins. I would rather believe that god would reward people for living a good clean life.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:16 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by mschaffer66
Hey I've got a cool idea how about we leave all of the associated with:

Religion
Politics
Sexuality
Race
Etc...

behind us? Seems like a pretty good idea to me.
Or... those of you who are bothered by such threads could just not look at them... :dunie:
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
I think Chris Rock said it right in Dogma, it's one thing to have faith in ideals, but having a belief structure is too much.
When religon approaches totalitarian control over a humans life what does it really solve?

I know personally I cant stand when someone says "well god says you should ____"

The bible is pretty much telling us something to that affect and has been interpted as such for years.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Deke
And thats the fundamental problem. Its wishy washy at best without faith.

If you removed the faith element from religon you have a bunch of kids stories. Where is the transition from a fabel to a religous document? How do I,you,we know that the person who said.."this is the word of god" made the right choice?
There are logical reasons why, and I have shared them with you before, for example: the document on the credibility of the apostles as eyewitnesses to Jesus' life. Call it wishy washy, but faith IS the key element.

They never started as fables man, they started as eye witness accounts, maybe they became fables after that, but it is up to you to decide that. If you examine those who wrote the story, and he who it was writtne about, you won't find a child's story about unicorns.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:22 AM   #59
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Yes, they started as eye witness accounts told by word of mouth through the generations until they were finally put to paper. I do not doubt Christ existed or his apostles. I don't doubt that he believed he was the son of God. And I certainly don't doubt that Christ believed he was giving his life for the rest of us either. It's not hard to accept this much. But I'm afraid that is as far as I'm willing to believe/have faith.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 10:24 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
There are logical reasons why, and I have shared them with you before, for example: the document on the credibility of the apostles as eyewitnesses to Jesus' life. Call it wishy washy, but faith IS the key element.

They never started as fables man, they started as eye witness accounts, maybe they became fables after that, but it is up to you to decide that. If you examine those who wrote the story, and he who it was writtne about, you won't find a child's story about unicorns.
I know this one because it intrested me a great deal, but the story of jesus walking on water.
With religous figures even agreeing that the location in the mediterian(sp) was probally correct they showed that with the tides and blah blah blah stuff i dont really recally the water becomes only a few inches deep.

If I needed faith to believe that newtons laws were right, would they be laws?
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