Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20th, 2005, 11:44 AM   #1
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,982
iTrader: (16)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Intelligent Design thread.

NO BASHING! HANDLE THIS LIKE ADULTS!

"Intelligent Design" does not actually equal God. It just assumes that there was an outside force that created the universe.

Recently the court rejected this subject in public schools...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/20/in....ap/index.html

My question is this. If you dig deep into the theory of evolution, you will find many holes, fabricated truths, and misinformation. Now I'm not going to condone believers of that theory, and I ask not to be condoned because I believe in God.

But when it comes down to it, your putting just as much faith in science as I am doing in the Lord. You didn't do the research... you didn't validate the research, so how can you be sure that it's correct?

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT bash people.
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 11:54 AM   #2
Semper Jeep
The great white hope!
 
Semper Jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Bloomfield
Posts: 65
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Semper Jeep
I was all set to edit my thread to read "Intelligent Design Found to be Un-Constitutional According to 3rd U.S. District Court" but it was already locked!:miff:
Semper Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:00 PM   #3
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
The very basis of a theory is that it remains a theory because it can not be proven one way or another.

What the real question of the issue is how do we validate a theory enough for it to be taught in our schools? What makes the theory of evolution right now, and soon the theory of creation valid enough to be taught.

If anything we need to keep science on the facts, teach scientific theory and leave it at that.

I believe the biggest part of the debate becomes evolution theory isnt attachted to a religous order, where as creation is. This is the major friction point and understandably so. If a student is going to a public school; that education is to be free of religion. By forcing them to learn creation you inpose the basis of the reglion apon them.
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:04 PM   #4
87'YJ
Jeeps, Journey and Jesus
 
87'YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Columbus
Posts: 1,651
iTrader: (2)
Here are some facts for you. I'm reading an amazing book right now called Darwin's Black Box. I recommend it to anyone who believes in the thoery of evolution. One of the most eye opening books I have ever read.

The truth of the matter is, there is a growing number of scientists today who are abandoning the theory of evolution because there are to many "holes" or unexplainables in the theory.

For example the thought of "irreducible complexity". In lay terms, this states that every basic organism has a point of complexity that cannot be reduced to an evolvable state. for example, the flagela on a bacteria. the flagela has something like 46 moving parts to make the little tail (which is more like a motor) work. There is no way for this to have evolved. like the thought of a mousetrap for example. you need the base, the spring, and a catch. without these basic parts, the mousetrap ceases to function as a mousetrap. same with bacteria. There are peices that are absolutely necessary to the survival of the bacteria that are on the basic level. The question then arises, how did all of those peices come together at one point in time on one organism if evolution is a series of minor mutations that happen over a large span of time.

Search "irreducible complexity" on the internet and see what you find.

Then you have issues of PLEIOTROPY (which is the thought that one single gene mutation effects all genes connected to it). this is more complex and I can get into it if anyone want to know more.
87'YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:04 PM   #5
Semper Jeep
The great white hope!
 
Semper Jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Bloomfield
Posts: 65
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Semper Jeep
The court shot down teaching it in biology classes because they realize that intelligent design is in fact not a science and has no relevence to biology. If the school district wanted to teach intelligent design, they should have offered an intelligent design course that the students would have known what they were getting into when they signed up for that class... instead of hi-jacking the first few minutes of a biology lesson (which science can back up) to talk about intelligent design.

I also think that its interesting to note that each and every school board member in Dover, PA (where the case originated) who was supporting teaching intelligent design was voted out of their position this past November.
Semper Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:06 PM   #6
Chop
Mischievous Badger
 
Chop's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Fenton Mi
Posts: 5,824
iTrader: (30)
Send a message via AIM to Chop
i dont believe in the darwin theory. i think the reason people put that much faith into science is because they can visually see that form of belief though a scientist explanation. Now i dont know anything about god religious beliefs at all. Its cool to have an open mind about that subject. but i say if they want to learn about evolution in that way it souldent be learned in school.
Chop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:07 PM   #7
Semper Jeep
The great white hope!
 
Semper Jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Bloomfield
Posts: 65
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Semper Jeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87'YJ
Here are some facts for you. I'm reading an amazing book right now called Darwin's Black Box. I recommend it to anyone who believes in the thoery of evolution. One of the most eye opening books I have ever read.

The truth of the matter is, there is a growing number of scientists today who are abandoning the theory of evolution because there are to many "holes" or unexplainables in the theory.

For example the thought of "irreducible complexity". In lay terms, this states that every basic organism has a point of complexity that cannot be reduced to an evolvable state. for example, the flagela on a bacteria. the flagela has something like 46 moving parts to make the little tail (which is more like a motor) work. There is no way for this to have evolved....
What that should say to be more accurate is, "There is currently no way for science to show or prove how the flagela could have evolved."
Semper Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:07 PM   #8
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Darwin and his theory is taught exactly as that.

I can recall that first class very specificly

"we all have our own beliefs and ideas on where we come from. From a science standpoint this is still a theory. I need you to learn the theory and know it for the test but what you really believe in is up to you"
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:08 PM   #9
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,982
iTrader: (16)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
I don't believe that christian (or any other) creation should be taught in school. Our country is based on idividual rights, and it's not my right to force your children to learn about God.

On the same note, I don't think evolution is sound enough to teach to my kids... but neither is Intelligent Design. So what to do?
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:08 PM   #10
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Lets get something VERY clear from the start. Dont put the fact label on opinions
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:08 PM   #11
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil
I don't believe that christian (or any other) creation should be taught in school. Our country is based on idividual rights, and it's not my right to force your children to learn about God.

On the same note, I don't think evolution is sound enough to teach to my kids... but neither is Intelligent Design. So what to do?
ditch it all. :miff:
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:11 PM   #12
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,982
iTrader: (16)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
ditch it all. :miff:
I like how intelligent design can also include sweet aliens... that is why I would vote for it
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:14 PM   #13
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyevil
I like how intelligent design can also include sweet aliens... that is why I would vote for it
If they put creation into the education then you'd have to start including ALL of the theories out there and that would take way to much time.
Its better for a student to be given the tools to figure it out as he/she sees fit and let them figure it out for themselves
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:18 PM   #14
Semper Jeep
The great white hope!
 
Semper Jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Bloomfield
Posts: 65
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Semper Jeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deke
If they put creation into the education then you'd have to start including ALL of the theories out there and that would take way to much time.
Its better for a student to be given the tools to figure it out as he/she sees fit and let them figure it out for themselves
The problem with teaching creationism or intelligent design as a theory in part of a science class is that there is no science involved. Generally, the people who support these ideas are happy to just believe in them and not search for any answers that can be proven.

This is what makes evolution a science... it may not be correct, but it is at least searching for answers and is willing to accept that evidence may come out that negates parts of its theory.
Semper Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:20 PM   #15
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,982
iTrader: (16)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper Jeep
The problem with teaching creationism or intelligent design as a theory in part of a science class is that there is no science involved. Generally, the people who support these ideas are happy to just believe in them and not search for any answers that can be proven.
There is just as much science as in the theory of evolution. Science is about removing all the variables to allow a well educated guess on the true's or false's of something. That would include attempting to prove that we COULD NOT have been created any other way but from someone (or somethings) hands.
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:22 PM   #16
87'YJ
Jeeps, Journey and Jesus
 
87'YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Columbus
Posts: 1,651
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper Jeep
What that should say to be more accurate is, "There is currently no way for science to show or prove how the flagela could have evolved."
Actually, the point that I am making, is that it COULDN'T have evolved. Thats like saying a 454 chevy could have miraculously appeared out of nothing in perfect tuned and working order. Its completely absurd. It takes mosre FAITH for you to believe that, than for a creationist to believe that a God made it. You are actually ignoring facts by saying, "well we haven't figured out a way to explain the impossible yet"...when in reality, its just that, impossible.

And, to throw the biggest wrench in for any evolutionist....where did all of this matter come from that is being used in their theory? we know as a LAW of science, that matter cannot ever be created or destroyed....so where did it all begin? Thats a tough one to answer for an evolutionist.

Last edited by 87'YJ; December 20th, 2005 at 12:24 PM.
87'YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:24 PM   #17
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper Jeep
The problem with teaching creationism or intelligent design as a theory in part of a science class is that there is no science involved. Generally, the people who support these ideas are happy to just believe in them and not search for any answers that can be proven.

This is what makes evolution a science... it may not be correct, but it is at least searching for answers and is willing to accept that evidence may come out that negates parts of its theory.
If you follow the scientific theory and follow some basic laws of science.. you're correct.
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:25 PM   #18
Deke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: gheyville
Posts: 2,097
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87'YJ
Actually, the point that I am making, is that it COULDN'T have evolved. Thats like saying a 454 chevy could have miraculously appeared out of nothing in perfect tuned and working order. Its completely absurd. It takes mosre FAITH for you to believe that, than for a creationist to believe that a God made it. You are actually ignoring facts by saying, "well we haven't figured out a way to explain the impossible yet"...when in reality, its just that, impossible.

And, to throw the biggest wrench in for any evolutionist....where did all of this matter come from that is being used in their theory? we know as a LAW of science, that matter cannot ever be created or destroyed....so where did it all begin? Thats a tough one to answer for an evolutionist.
Im not sure what you are saying.

an evolutionist doesnt say matter appears from nothing. thats a creationalist
Deke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:27 PM   #19
Semper Jeep
The great white hope!
 
Semper Jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Bloomfield
Posts: 65
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to Semper Jeep
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87'YJ
Actually, the point that I am making, is that it COULDN'T have evolved. Thats like saying a 454 chevy could have miraculously appeared out of nothing in perfect tuned and working order. Its completely absurd. It takes mosre FAITH for you to believe that, than for a creationist to believe that a God made it.

And, to throw the biggest wrench in for any evolutionist....where did all of this matter come from that is being used in their theory? we know as a LAW of science, that matter cannot ever be created or destroyed....so where did it all begin? Thats a tough one to answer for an evolutionist.
I don't really think that's a question for an evolutionist.... that would be something that would be asked to a physicist or somebody who is studying the big bang theory (if you want a scientific or academic answer).

I am not saying I believe any of this one way or another.
Semper Jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2005, 12:28 PM   #20
Lothos
KD8GKB
 
Lothos's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-17-05
Location: .5 past lightspeed
Posts: 6,506
iTrader: (3)
Send a message via ICQ to Lothos Send a message via AIM to Lothos Send a message via Yahoo to Lothos
Ok, mind you I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet, but my problem with ID backers is this, ID backers will not condone the possibility that a fallable entity such as Martians, Humans elsewhere, etc.. had a part in the design. It's backed by people that insist that a miracle have occured and that a God or deity of some power has a hand in it.
Lothos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.22340 seconds with 52 queries