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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #81
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Right-to-work was going to come up. I am a union member, but am unsure in my job ho much it really helps this day in age. I do believe that the union has helped with making sure that we get a far wage and benefits. However, I have not made up my mind about if they are a thing of the past.

What really makes me mad about this legislation, is the way that it as brought up in the lame duck session, and the Governor Snyder all of a sudden says he will support it, after saying so many times that it is not on his agenda, and he did not want to see it debated. Then we find out that they have been having secret meetings about it for over a week.

To me, it seems that we have always had a choice. You can work at a union shop, or not. Work for Meijer and don't like being part of the union? Go to Walmart.

I fully believe that our government has lost touch with us, the people that they are supposed to represent. When is the last time that you have seen bills pass that quickly? What else is attached to the bill? Is it one big smoke screen to give themselves back lifetime health benefits or something along those lines? Why are police officers and firefighters exempt?

Even if they pass it, and the Governor signs it, I fully believe that we have no heard/seen the end of this debate.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #82
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They are exempt in case they are needed to stop the riot that will break out afterwards
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Old December 8th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #83
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Right-to-work was going to come up. I am a union member, but am unsure in my job ho much it really helps this day in age. I do believe that the union has helped with making sure that we get a far wage and benefits. However, I have not made up my mind about if they are a thing of the past.

What really makes me mad about this legislation, is the way that it as brought up in the lame duck session, and the Governor Snyder all of a sudden says he will support it, after saying so many times that it is not on his agenda, and he did not want to see it debated. Then we find out that they have been having secret meetings about it for over a week.

To me, it seems that we have always had a choice. You can work at a union shop, or not. Work for Meijer and don't like being part of the union? Go to Walmart.

I fully believe that our government has lost touch with us, the people that they are supposed to represent. When is the last time that you have seen bills pass that quickly? What else is attached to the bill? Is it one big smoke screen to give themselves back lifetime health benefits or something along those lines? Why are police officers and firefighters exempt?

Even if they pass it, and the Governor signs it, I fully believe that we have no heard/seen the end of this debate.
I agree on all the above.

I find it disheartening that he's been very clear that he wasn't going to touch it. I can count at least 3 or 4 statewide emails to state employees in the past year where he stated he wasn't going to touch it...then he blows it through in a week.

He actually had been doing a good job of encouraging sacrifice for the good of all in the state system. "Hey, I got some candy if you help me find my puppy". Oh shit, we jumped in the van...guess what?

I've only used the union a couple of times in 17 years and most of us just go to work and do our jobs quietly.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #84
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I still don't understand the protests.

I do not belong to a Union, but if I worked an hourly job I could see the benefit of Unions. That being said, if I did work and hourly job then I would have an employment contract between myself and my employer. I may CHOOSE to support a Union if I felt it were in my favor, but it should not be a requirement of my employment that I join or support a third party. What am I missing?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #85
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You can still have your unions, what part of that isn't clear?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #86
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I still don't understand the protests.

I do not belong to a Union, but if I worked an hourly job I could see the benefit of Unions. That being said, if I did work and hourly job then I would have an employment contract between myself and my employer. I may CHOOSE to support a Union if I felt it were in my favor, but it should not be a requirement of my employment that I join or support a third party. What am I missing?
The union members are getting all butthurt because they know they will lose membership if this legislation passes. Being able to completely control people is very much to their favor.

Giving people a choice to do as they please seems like common sense. But not in the union's eyes.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #87
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The union members are getting all butthurt because they know they will lose membership if this legislation passes. Being able to completely control people is very much to their favor.

Giving people a choice to do as they please seems like common sense. But not in the union's eyes.
And Democrats are scared shirtless because they campaign with union money.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #88
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?... What really makes me mad about this legislation, is the way that it as brought up in the lame duck session, and the Governor Snyder all of a sudden says he will support it, after saying so many times that it is not on his agenda, and he did not want to see it debated. Then we find out that they have been having secret meetings about it for over a week.
Snyder made it clear that he wasn't going to bring RTW up, as long as King (UAW CEO) didn't pursue Prop 2. King (and others) called his bluff, and Snyder is simply responding as promised. When the union CEOs decided to play politics, they set events into motion.

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To me, it seems that we have always had a choice. You can work at a union shop, or not. Work for Meijer and don't like being part of the union? Go to Walmart.
How about if you're a teacher? If you think objectively about it, the closed shop concept is pretty screwed up. "Congratulations on the new job, now to keep that job you have to join a club and pay them an initiation fee as well as a part of your wages monthly".

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I fully believe that our government has lost touch with us, the people that they are supposed to represent. When is the last time that you have seen bills pass that quickly? What else is attached to the bill? Is it one big smoke screen to give themselves back lifetime health benefits or something along those lines? Why are police officers and firefighters exempt?
Based on the results from Prop 2, the electorate has spoke pretty clearly. The 82% of MI's workforce that are not union members are tired of the unions repelling jobs from MI. And as for "brotherhood", take a look at the kinds of wages and benefits current UAW members voted to give new members. Not a lot of "solidarity" there - more like "don't touch my pay/benefits, but go ahead and stick to the new guys".

As I've said before, unions who's members believe they're doing a good job should be unaffected. Skilled trades will be unaffected, as they are in the current RTW states - they provide something to both their members (training and certification) and employers (qualified craftspeople).
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #89
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So making $20 an hour is too high a wage?
I know companies that pay engineers less than that, so yeah that is too high if you have a high school education and your job is to put a screw in every 20 seconds.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #90
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Personally I am not a fan of the UAW. But most people I know couldn't do a ten hour shift on the line. I have a friend that works at the ford truck plant. He hangs the steering gearbox. I've been there and watched him hang a gearbox and run in three bolts. Sounds simple don't it. Except one comes every 22 seconds. When I was there it was the 2009 model year and the gear box weighed in at 55 lbs each. He let me try it out and after four or five I was done arm burning and hand cramping. Not an easy job at all. He makes good money but his body pays dearly for it.

Now a lot of people would say I'm overpaid. Yes I drive a garbage truck. We are non union. But we get paid what we do because they do not want the union in our shop. Reason for that is if we vote in the union all management gets fired. The last three years I have made over 150k. A lot of folks say that's too much. I say come do the job for a week. The job sucks the truck beats the shit out of your body. Not to mention the smells and nasty shit you have to shovel out of the box. I don't think I'm over paid. I think I am paid fair for what I do.

My thoughts are if you want to live in a RTW state move to one don't screw up the state I live in. I was listening to 97.1 the ticket today and they said that 7 of the 10 state with the highest per capita income are non RTW states. So I say Mr.Snyder I voted for you but will never again. Take your nerd persona and please leave my state and go somewhere else like Kentucky. That's a RTW state and also the poorest state in the union.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #91
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What is your concern of MI going right-to-work?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #92
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What is your concern of MI going right-to-work?
That the wages of the working man will be lowered. Damn near everyone on this board will be affected. Unless your a millionaire that owns a business your wage will be lowered. Whoever thinks RTW is a good idea they need to pull their heads out of their asses and see what's going on. Go to other RTW states and see what there wages are. As I said earlier I make over 150k doing my job. There are other companies in this state where most of the guys make 60k or less. Which is a good wage still. But in Flordia for my company only make 35k a year. Which is not right. There is no way in hell I would do my job for 35k a year.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #93
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That the wages of the working man will be lowered. Damn near everyone on this board will be affected. Unless your a millionaire that owns a business your wage will be lowered. Whoever thinks RTW is a good idea they need to pull their heads out of their asses and see what's going on. Go to other RTW states and see what there wages are. As I said earlier I make over 150k doing my job. There are other companies in this state where most of the guys make 60k or less. Which is a good wage still. But in Flordia for my company only make 35k a year. Which is not right. There is no way in hell I would do my job for 35k a year.
I love when cost of living and unemployment rate is ignored.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:11 PM   #94
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...they said that 7 of the 10 state with the highest per capita income are non RTW states
You also have to look at what states those are. Those same 7 states are likely states with the highest cost of living too, so wages are high to adjust for that.

I guess I don't understand how you correlate RTW with an overall decrease in wages.

RTW doesn't stop unions from forming or existing unions from functioning.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #95
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That the wages of the working man will be lowered. Damn near everyone on this board will be affected. Unless your a millionaire that owns a business your wage will be lowered. Whoever thinks RTW is a good idea they need to pull their heads out of their asses and see what's going on. Go to other RTW states and see what there wages are. As I said earlier I make over 150k doing my job. There are other companies in this state where most of the guys make 60k or less. Which is a good wage still. But in Flordia for my company only make 35k a year. Which is not right. There is no way in hell I would do my job for 35k a year.
How would giving individuals the ability to choose whether or not they belong to a union affect wages? Unions and contracts would remain.

Again, RTW doesn't eliminate unions or nullify contracts.

The UAW plants in Kansas, Georgia, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Virginia seem to get along just fine, and have the same types of wages as other plants.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #96
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I love when cost of living and unemployment rate is ignored.
I dunno man. My father worked at macsteel in jackson for at least 2 decades and when thew closed down for a handful of months a few years ago, he didn't want to wait and see if they would re-open or not. He transferred down to Arkansas to do the same job. Lost over 20% of his pay just because of the rates, and he is in fact a company man. His earnings are capped. Good ol right to work state, and the cost of living down there is every bit as high as up here. Milk and burger cost the same man. So where do we win?

Although it won't affect me, my fear is for the good hard working union people. Not the corrupt unions (we all know who they are)
I see a company pissing on their employees because they can and if and when those employees decide to stike, company says to hell with ya, I ain't giving you shit and you are all fired. Hire in new employees at a lower rate and yay for them, cause they should be happy to even have a job.
That is the mentality out there. The company you work for thinks you should kiss their ass for for even letting you step foor on their property.

I mean they could just bring on a newbie, have you train him, he will work for less than what you are getting paid, and with you being close to retirement, or maybe you have a bad knee from getting shot up in the war they don't want any chance of having to pay anything to you for any reason. So boom, after you train this kid, you are shit canned for no reason, with no recourse as the company now doesn't have to negotate with the union cause it can hire anyone off the street it wants.

On another note. If a company agrees to have a union in its shop, why does the government have to tell them how to run their business? Maybe they don't want a non union employee as to not create animosity between the men working for them?

Just a thought.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #97
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well if its any consolation all the people who work hard at sucking managers dicks will have loads of knee time to look forward too. as it will be the only thing to keep you on the job after you crush the unions
Again, RTW doesn't crush unions.

I'm non-represented, and spend zero time on my knees.

However, I was doing a cross-industry assignment at Chrysler's McGraw Glass plant 10-12 years ago. While there, I ran into my former janitor - she was a good-looking gal of about 25-27 years old. She had been working for Chrysler for about eight months and loved it, because she was already a union rep. Yes, fresh off probation she rocketed into a full-time union gig, where she got whatever OT was being paid on the floor so she could provide "support". I suspect some knee time might've factored in there...
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #98
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How would giving individuals the ability to choose whether or not they belong to a union affect wages? Unions and contracts would remain.

Again, RTW doesn't eliminate unions or nullify contracts.

The UAW plants in Kansas, Georgia, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Virginia seem to get along just fine, and have the same types of wages as other plants.
Do you know this for a fact? My same friend that I mentioned earlier. Wanted to transfer to the Kentucky truck plant but it would be an 8 dollar an hour pay cut and his insurance wouldn't be as good. Granted homes are cheaper but gas, food and healthcare cost the same. So I don't see how this is comparable. Yes Michigan has a higher cost of living than other areas of the country but there are areas of the state where homes and property are much lower than the metro Detroit area. So I don't buy the whole it cheaper to live in other states.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #99
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #100
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Do you know this for a fact? My same friend that I mentioned earlier. Wanted to transfer to the Kentucky truck plant but it would be an 8 dollar an hour pay cut and his insurance wouldn't be as good. Granted homes are cheaper but gas, food and healthcare cost the same. So I don't see how this is comparable. Yes Michigan has a higher cost of living than other areas of the country but there are areas of the state where homes and property are much lower than the metro Detroit area. So I don't buy the whole it cheaper to live in other states.
The difference would be a local agreement. Note that KY is not a RTW state.

And there are states much cheaper than MI - as well as a lot higher. MI is in the middle.

When I lived in IN it was significantly cheaper than MI - insurance, taxes, etc...
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