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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:28 PM   #21
87'YJ
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Originally Posted by Semper Jeep
Generally, the people who support these ideas are happy to just believe in them and not search for any answers that can be proven.
And are you saying that I don't do research??? I might have well have minored in biology at Ohio State I took so many classes. You, or any other evolutionist for that matter, have yet to defend yourself from the blatant points I just made in the previous arguement.

So far, I am the only one who has presented a factual arguement in this discussion....

I'm an educated Intelligent Design supporter...and there is a reason.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 87'YJ
And are you saying that I don't do research??? I might have well have minored in biology at Ohio State I took so many classes. You, or any other evolutionist for that matter, have yet to defend yourself from the blatant points I just made in the previous arguement.

So far, I am the only one who has presented a factual arguement in this discussion....

I'm an educated Intelligent Design supporter...and there is a reason.
So with your education you will only use part of your science backround to prove your theory. Then in the same breath you'll rely on faith and some magic for stuff to "appear"
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:30 PM   #23
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Im not sure what you are saying.

an evolutionist doesnt say matter appears from nothing. thats a creationalist

Yeah... an evolutionists completely ignores this all together because they have no answer.

For a big bang to have happened, what was needed? matter....that thing that can't be created or destroyed. So where did it come from?
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #24
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If they put creation into the education then you'd have to start including ALL of the theories out there and that would take way to much time.
Its better for a student to be given the tools to figure it out as he/she sees fit and let them figure it out for themselves
good theory, hard to implement. Some are arguing that preferential treatment is being given to that one theory already, and because it was created from an "scientific" perspective, it must be pure enough to teach.

another craw sticking point for me, is that the constitution does NOT state that there shall be no religion in government, or schools. only that the government shall not favor any one specific religion. it has been misinterpretted as a "separation of church and state"...

that all being said, I am typically the prototypical devil's advocate.

As such, I bounce one idea off of another, and am open to learning about all sorts of theories, and am as equally fascinated by Discovery Channel specials on both particle physics in as much as I am by Discovery Channel specials on Bibliographic Anthropology.

I have come to my own personal beliefs through sort of a civil court type arrangement. The preponderance of the evidence that I have found leads me to simply state that it is honestly easier for me to accept that "something" (for the purpose of not starting down the road of bashing I won't dive much deeper than that) "seeded" life here.

I've done statistics for work for 17 years. Recently have had to take some more advanced statistics. Having that background knowledge combined with the "best scientific guesses" about things such as how long we think the universe has been here, the staggering number of variables in even a "simple" genetic sequence, atomic and gravitational pulls, chemical/protein chains, etc, etc, etc.

well, in my opinion it's as absurd for me to accept that it all fell into place by some cosmic accident, as it is for pure logically, scientific thinking people to accept that there is something out there, beyond the capabilities of our mind to grasp, that transcends our senses, etc.

but, along those lines - how many people are comfortable thinking along the lines of such things as the mathematically "proven" dimensions beyond our 3 that we know and can tangibly interact with? space/time warps? worm holes?

There are as has been stated, way too many various theories, and we hypothesize, and "prove" more and more each day. How to cram even a high level view of it into a standard public school curriculum may be part of the reason why some of it gets shot down...

and not to start a teacher bashing thread, but I have first hand knowledge of just how full our school days are for our kids - not only from my 5 year old already having homework each night, but to hearing about all of the new mandates, and required curriculum's and standardized test preparations that my mom has to adopt each and every year into her classroom...
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #25
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Ok, mind you I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet, but my problem with ID backers is this, ID backers will not condone the possibility that a fallable entity such as Martians, Humans elsewhere, etc.. had a part in the design. It's backed by people that insist that a miracle have occured and that a God or deity of some power has a hand in it.
Which makes it even more propaganda. The narrowness of the theory so bad that they dont accept any variation from it at all.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:32 PM   #26
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Yeah... an evolutionists completely ignores this all together because they have no answer.

For a big bang to have happened, what was needed? matter....that thing that can't be created or destroyed. So where did it come from?
That is not in question here. We are questioning the creation of life as we know it.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by RyeBread
good theory, hard to implement. Some are arguing that preferential treatment is being given to that one theory already, and because it was created from an "scientific" perspective, it must be pure enough to teach.

another craw sticking point for me, is that the constitution does NOT state that there shall be no religion in government, or schools. only that the government shall not favor any one specific religion. it has been misinterpretted as a "separation of church and state"...

that all being said, I am typically the prototypical devil's advocate.

As such, I bounce one idea off of another, and am open to learning about all sorts of theories, and am as equally fascinated by Discovery Channel specials on both particle physics in as much as I am by Discovery Channel specials on Bibliographic Anthropology.

I have come to my own personal beliefs through sort of a civil court type arrangement. The preponderance of the evidence that I have found leads me to simply state that it is honestly easier for me to accept that "something" (for the purpose of not starting down the road of bashing I won't dive much deeper than that) "seeded" life here.

I've done statistics for work for 17 years. Recently have had to take some more advanced statistics. Having that background knowledge combined with the "best scientific guesses" about things such as how long we think the universe has been here, the staggering number of variables in even a "simple" genetic sequence, atomic and gravitational pulls, chemical/protein chains, etc, etc, etc.

well, in my opinion it's as absurd for me to accept that it all fell into place by some cosmic accident, as it is for pure logically, scientific thinking people to accept that there is something out there, beyond the capabilities of our mind to grasp, that transcends our senses, etc.

but, along those lines - how many people are comfortable thinking along the lines of such things as the mathematically "proven" dimensions beyond our 3 that we know and can tangibly interact with? space/time warps? worm holes?

There are as has been stated, way too many various theories, and we hypothesize, and "prove" more and more each day. How to cram even a high level view of it into a standard public school curriculum may be part of the reason why some of it gets shot down...

and not to start a teacher bashing thread, but I have first hand knowledge of just how full our school days are for our kids - not only from my 5 year old already having homework each night, but to hearing about all of the new mandates, and required curriculum's and standardized test preparations that my mom has to adopt each and every year into her classroom...
You raise some questions but offer no answer in the end. This is the trend that this thread and mainly any type of this arguement will follow. In the end, we dont know with any fact.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:34 PM   #28
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So with your education you will only use part of your science backround to prove your theory. Then in the same breath you'll rely on faith and some magic for stuff to "appear"
I think that is exactly the point I am making.

I am extremely educated on this point. This allows me to make certain judgement calls steming from my education on whether or not things make sense in the thoery of evolution.

No one knows where we all came from, therefore....we all have FAITH that something happened. so for you to say that your faith is better is rediculous. I am using actual facts to back up what I am saying. Are you?
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by 87'YJ
And are you saying that I don't do research??? I might have well have minored in biology at Ohio State I took so many classes. You, or any other evolutionist for that matter, have yet to defend yourself from the blatant points I just made in the previous arguement.

So far, I am the only one who has presented a factual arguement in this discussion....

I'm an educated Intelligent Design supporter...and there is a reason.
I never said anything about you or what research you may have done or what your education was. Re-read what I posted and you will see that I made a generalized statement.

As for me, don't label me an evolutionist, like I said before, I have not stated me views on this subject one way or another.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lothos
Ok, mind you I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread yet, but my problem with ID backers is this, ID backers will not condone the possibility that a fallable entity such as Martians, Humans elsewhere, etc.. had a part in the design. It's backed by people that insist that a miracle have occured and that a God or deity of some power has a hand in it.
no, not all ID backers are attributing the ID as a result of a diety/power. There is a fairly large contingent of people that support the idea that we were "seeded" by some other life. But that then doesnt' answer how that life was created...

:tonka:
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:36 PM   #31
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no, not all ID backers are attributing the ID as a result of a diety/power. There is a fairly large contingent of people that support the idea that we were "seeded" by some other life. But that then doesnt' answer how that life was created...

:tonka:

tell a normal creationalist that we are living in an ANT farm. watch their heads pop.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:36 PM   #32
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You raise some questions but offer no answer in the end. This is the trend that this thread and mainly any type of this arguement will follow. In the end, we dont know with any fact.
correct - on both sides of the argument. so, why does one side get taught?
:)
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:37 PM   #33
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I never said anything about you or what research you may have done or what your education was. Re-read what I posted and you will see that I made a generalized statement.

As for me, don't label me an evolutionist, like I said before, I have not stated me views on this subject one way or another.
your locked thread, titled "bible thumpers" may have given some an impression of which way you are headed.

for some, the term "bible thumper" is almost as offensive as a racial slur.

:dunno:
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:37 PM   #34
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correct - on both sides of the argument. so, why does one side get taught?
:)
They could get evolution out of schools a LOT easyier then they could get creationalism into the school.

But their ignorance and faith means they want to spread their word so they will fight the battle of getting it into schools.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:37 PM   #35
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That is not in question here. We are questioning the creation of life as we know it.

OK, lets discuss evolution.

One major flaw in the thoery of evolution is a complete lack of fossil evidence. IF evolution occured, there should be an abundant amount of fossil proof. there would also be "links" walking around everywhere today, because evolution would never stop!!! yet we have these clear boundaries in species. Why is this?

Please answer this question without attacking or making rediculous remarks.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:38 PM   #36
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tell a normal creationalist that we are living in an ANT farm. watch their heads pop.
heh, well I draw a significant distinction between ID discussions, and "creationalism".

and I have the seemingly relatively rare ability to think outside the box, and also in a linear, and logical fashion. completely open minded.

purists on both sides are so diametrically opposed that they can't entertain thoughts outside their comfort zone, or knowledge base (generally speaking)
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:38 PM   #37
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your locked thread, titled "bible thumpers" may have given some an impression of which way you are headed.

for some, the term "bible thumper" is almost as offensive as a racial slur.

:dunno:
Condeming non-believers to hell is a little harsh on their part dont ya think?
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:39 PM   #38
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I think that is exactly the point I am making.

I am extremely educated on this point. This allows me to make certain judgement calls steming from my education on whether or not things make sense in the thoery of evolution.

No one knows where we all came from, therefore....we all have FAITH that something happened. so for you to say that your faith is better is rediculous. I am using actual facts to back up what I am saying. Are you?
You may be educated in the science (or lack of for that matter) of biology and intelligent design and so may I be educated in the fields of policy constitutional issues (B.A. in economics, B.S. in public administration and public policy, Masters of public administration with a concentration in school administration) so I feel confident in stating that legally, intelligent desing has no place being taught in a high school biology class... and the 3rd U.S. District Court would agree with me.
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:41 PM   #39
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OK, lets discuss evolution.

One major flaw in the thoery of evolution is a complete lack of fossil evidence. IF evolution occured, there should be an abundant amount of fossil proof. there would also be "links" walking around everywhere today, because evolution would never stop!!! yet we have these clear boundaries in species. Why is this?

Please answer this question without attacking or making rediculous remarks.
Have you seen the animal kingdom tree? Please dont take this as insulting your education but as with a normal tree its trunks down to a single stalk. thats...the begining. There are many branches off on their own and many connected into the tree. There are thousands and thousands of variations. We are still to this day discovering new species. Isnt it conciable(sp) that we just havent found those links yet?
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Old December 20th, 2005, 01:41 PM   #40
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They could get evolution out of schools a LOT easyier then they could get creationalism into the school.

But their ignorance and faith means they want to spread their word so they will fight the battle of getting it into schools.
in all of your history, you should know that it's easier to rally people to fight for something, than against something - especially if one offers no substitute.

and obviously, there is/was just enough "well that makes sense" in evolution that it's even harder to rally people to "fight against it".
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