308 AR platform vs bolt action guns - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

The Pub A friendly forum where everybody is nice, and will answer any questions you have about life.

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 18th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #1
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 3,026
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default 308 AR platform vs bolt action guns

Anyone have a AR style large caliber gun...if so how do they compare for accuracy vs Bolt action 308s?
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 18th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #2
FlatFender
Tap Tap Splat
 
FlatFender's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 15,801
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

You know we have a whole forum for thus stuff, right?

A good friend has a LaRue PredatAR in .308, he gets sub-minute accuracy with it.
FlatFender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 11:40 PM   #3
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

My Bushmaster ORC .308 shoots sub MOA out to 200 yards. It can't hit a deer at 41 yards but that's a different story. I can't vouch for it past 200 yards because I have not shot it farther than that. All I have done to it is put a CAA cheek rest on it, a Hogue pistol grip on it and a JP Enterprise free float tube on it. I have no idea how it stacks up against a bolt gun because I don't shoot bolts.

Last edited by Bullhed78; November 18th, 2012 at 11:41 PM. Reason: add .308
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 11:43 PM   #4
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 3,026
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
My Bushmaster ORC .308 shoots sub MOA out to 200 yards. It can't hit a deer at 41 yards but that's a different story. I can't vouch for it past 200 yards because I have not shot it farther than that. All I have done to it is put a CAA cheek rest on it, a Hogue pistol grip on it and a JP Enterprise free float tube on it. I have no idea how it stacks up against a bolt gun because I don't shoot bolts.
IDK that busmaster makes ORC in 308....I may have to check that out. Im looking for something that is going to work for 300-600 yard range. I have 223s and 22-250s for 200-300 yard range.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2012, 11:56 PM   #5
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

It is actually a rebranded DPMS. I think Bushmaster made its own barrel for it. I don't know if they made any of the other parts for it. It has a chrome lined barrel and a 2 stage trigger from the factory. I don't know if the quality has changed since the Wyndham Maine plant was closed. I hear on the interwebs that Bushmaster isn't what it used to be since Freedom Arms Group bought them out. Could be true, could be a lot of fan boys hating. All I know is I love mine. I never tested accuracy before the JP free float tube but I love that tube.
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:05 AM   #6
FlatFender
Tap Tap Splat
 
FlatFender's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 15,801
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
It is actually a rebranded DPMS. I think Bushmaster made its own barrel for it. I don't know if they made any of the other parts for it. It has a chrome lined barrel and a 2 stage trigger from the factory. I don't know if the quality has changed since the Wyndham Maine plant was closed. I hear on the interwebs that Bushmaster isn't what it used to be since Freedom Arms Group bought them out. Could be true, could be a lot of fan boys hating. All I know is I love mine. I never tested accuracy before the JP free float tube but I love that tube.
Bushmaster and DPMS are both bottom end manufacturers, and always have been. Only thing was, for a long time there wasn't as much competition for them as there is now.
FlatFender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #7
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
Bushmaster and DPMS are both bottom end manufacturers, and always have been. Only thing was, for a long time there wasn't as much competition for them as there is now.
May be true. May not be true. All I know is that I have been 100% happy with all 3 of my Bushy's. I don't feel the need to defend a company because someone thinks a "Bottom end manufacturer". Mine work great for what I do.
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #8
FlatFender
Tap Tap Splat
 
FlatFender's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 15,801
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
May be true. May not be true. All I know is that I have been 100% happy with all 3 of my Bushy's. I don't feel the need to defend a company because someone thinks a "Bottom end manufacturer". Mine work great for what I do.
Lol. It's true. Bushmaster is well known for using less than optimal steel, not staking gas keys, and a lot of other things.

If you have one that runs well, and shoots accurately, great, but with all of the other competition on the market, I'd look elsewhere if I were shopping for an AR.
FlatFender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:36 AM   #9
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

The AR market has absolutely gone berserk. I'm sure there are several good manufacturers out there. I have no idea how someone can truly know the difference between truth and hype. Everyone says they make the best. LoL. I may be wrong about this but I would definitely go with something that takes DPMS type mags. That seems to be the way the aftermarket company's are leaning. I'm not sure what company's use the same mag as DOMS. AR's in the .308 platform are still very proprietary.
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #10
FlatFender
Tap Tap Splat
 
FlatFender's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 15,801
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Pretty much everything takes a standard .308 AR mag. There are a couple variants out there that run on FAL mags, but they are few and far between.
FlatFender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 01:37 AM   #11
barry1me
Just another day
 
barry1me's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-09-06
Location: Howell, MI
Posts: 3,026
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

im trying to decide between a semi 308 AR style or a Savage 308 bolt action.
barry1me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 05:55 AM   #12
chadcooper55
expert jeep disassembler
 
chadcooper55's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-28-08
Location: kent city mi
Posts: 8,055
iTrader: (20)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
You know we have a whole forum for thus stuff, right?

A good friend has a LaRue PredatAR in .308, he gets sub-minute accuracy with it.
This is why I would not get a .308 ar. It is big bucks to get a sub moa gun. My savage 308 with the barrel cut down to 18" and a muzzle brake shoots 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards all day. I don't own a bolt action that I can't shoot sub moa. If it isn't accurate enough to do that I sell it.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
chadcooper55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #13
matt3liv
Senior Member
 
matt3liv's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-17-06
Location: Fenton
Posts: 386
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry1me View Post
Anyone have a AR style large caliber gun...if so how do they compare for accuracy vs Bolt action 308s?
I have a CMMG Mark III in 7.62 NATO. It has a stainless 18" bull barrel. Its set up for LR (by MI standards) shooting.

So far, I've only tested with it Gold Metal Match 168s. I have about 550 rounds through it. With that load I can reach out to a little past 800y with excellent accuracy and reliability. I'm going subsonic after about 850y and tumbling all over the place. I don't reload, but have someone who is going to develop some loads for me to get past 1000y.

To answer your question, they CAN be every bit as accurate as a bolt gun. Applying the fundamentals of marksmanship are the key to being accurate with either one though. I wouldn't necessarily say that as a group, gas guns are as accurate as bolt guns though. There is too much variation between brands. IMO, just about every mid or lower range gas gun needs a new trigger right off the bat. Many of the bolt guns have a satisfactory adjustable triggers. On the flip side, most gas guns (I think) are running free float tubes out of the box, where lots of bolt guns are not (hogue overmold stocks on remingtons). When you are looking at a precision rifle for the distances past several hundred yards, these are both significant features.
matt3liv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #14
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,254
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
Lol. It's true. Bushmaster is well known for using less than optimal steel, not staking gas keys, and a lot of other things.

If you have one that runs well, and shoots accurately, great, but with all of the other competition on the market, I'd look elsewhere if I were shopping for an AR.
What are your thoughts on the LWRC M6A2 5.56?
Was looking at and wanting, I have not heard alot about this manufacturer.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #15
FlatFender
Tap Tap Splat
 
FlatFender's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 15,801
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
What are your thoughts on the LWRC M6A2 5.56?
Was looking at and wanting, I have not heard alot about this manufacturer.
I know a couple guys that love their LWRC's, but I prefer gas over piston. I'd rather have a Daniel Defense or BCM, etc.
FlatFender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #16
Easy_E
Web Wheeler !
 
Easy_E's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-18-07
Location: St Johns Mi
Posts: 1,154
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt3liv View Post
I have a CMMG Mark III in 7.62 NATO. It has a stainless 18" bull barrel. Its set up for LR (by MI standards) shooting.

So far, I've only tested with it Gold Metal Match 168s. I have about 550 rounds through it. With that load I can reach out to a little past 800y with excellent accuracy and reliability. I'm going subsonic after about 850y and tumbling all over the place. I don't reload, but have someone who is going to develop some loads for me to get past 1000y.

To answer your question, they CAN be every bit as accurate as a bolt gun. Applying the fundamentals of marksmanship are the key to being accurate with either one though. I wouldn't necessarily say that as a group, gas guns are as accurate as bolt guns though. There is too much variation between brands. IMO, just about every mid or lower range gas gun needqs a new trigger right off the bat. Many of the bolt guns have a satisfactory adjustable triggers. On the flip side, most gas guns (I think) are running free float tubes out of the box, where lots of bolt guns are not (hogue overmold stocks on remingtons). When you are looking at a precision rifle for the distances past several hundred yards, these are both significant features.
Shooting gas gun is a whole lot different then a bolt gun. I think guys are lured into the semi auto thing and it works against them for accuracy . Going from a bolt to semi it still takes me a while to settle in and shoot worth a damn.

You may need to do some reloading work to get that short barrel gun to a thousand. I have a 24" barreled bolt 308 and I'm two grains over book max powder charge to get there. I haven't pushed my AR10 that hard yet and not sure if I'll try it.
Easy_E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #17
matt3liv
Senior Member
 
matt3liv's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-17-06
Location: Fenton
Posts: 386
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy_E View Post
Shooting gas gun is a whole lot different then a bolt gun.
Please elaborate. Why is it different? Does it require different fundamentals? Is it because the machine functions differently?

I've heard people say this before, but I don't think that its that big of a deal. Aside from some comments about having to follow through more completely due to gas port location versus barrel length, losing velocity to the action, and torquing the lower for more consistent fit between upper and lower, I have never seen anything quantified.

I'll also say that I have not shot a bolt gun out to those distances either, perhaps I took the hard road to get there. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy_E View Post
I think guys are lured into the semi auto thing and it works against them for accuracy.
How much of this might be due to a lack of marksmanship skills and them essentially wanting to get out there to "grip it and rip it"? Just because Spanky got himself a brand new AR and its chambered for 223, he thinks he can be a sniper now. But it doesn't change the fact that Spanky can't keep a steady bead on anything no matter what the distance is. I come back to my original point, its all about applying excellent fundamentals of marksmanship.

Last edited by matt3liv; November 19th, 2012 at 12:44 PM.
matt3liv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #18
DuffMan
Your Message Here
 
DuffMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: The Ile of Grosse
Posts: 5,845
iTrader: (11)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I took my new Tikka T3 .300 Win Mag out yesterday and the first three shots were all touching teach other. Right out of the box.

Granted, they weren't where the scope crosshairs said they should've been, but they were still all three touching.

This with non-remarkable, off-the-shelf Winchester ammo.

For hunting purposes, the .308 ARs all have a pretty substantial weight penalty compared to a bolt action - especially a lightened model.
__________________
This is the Pub. Leave common sense at the door.
DuffMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 06:32 PM   #19
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt3liv View Post
Please elaborate. Why is it different? Does it require different fundamentals?

How much of this might be due to a lack of marksmanship skills and them essentially wanting to get out there to "grip it and rip it"? Just because Spanky got himself a brand new AR and its chambered for 223, he thinks he can be a sniper now. But it doesn't change the fact that Spanky can't keep a steady bead on anything no matter what the distance is. I come back to my original point, its all about applying excellent fundamentals of marksmanship.
LoL. I have seen lots of Spanky's. I am not a bolt gun shooter but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once. With the AR platform you have the impulse of the round firing then you have the impulse of the bolt and buffer spring doing their job. Follow through is very important with an AR platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
For hunting purposes, the .308 ARs all have a pretty substantial weight penalty compared to a bolt action - especially a lightened model.
Agreed 100%. If I had plans of going on a hunt that involved lots of walking or mountainous type terrain I would much rather be carrying a bolt vs my AR .308
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #20
Easy_E
Web Wheeler !
 
Easy_E's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-18-07
Location: St Johns Mi
Posts: 1,154
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt3liv View Post
Please elaborate. Why is it different? Does it require different fundamentals? Is it because the machine functions differently?

I've heard people say this before, but I don't think that its that big of a deal. Aside from some comments about having to follow through more completely due to gas port location versus barrel length, losing velocity to the action, and torquing the lower for more consistent fit between upper and lower, I have never seen anything quantified.

I'll also say that I have not shot a bolt gun out to those distances either, perhaps I took the hard road to get there. :)
I am going by my personal experience and people I shoot with . I tend to shoot bolt guns free recoil . That is tough to master with a pistol grip semi gun most want to grab the grip and steer the gun. By grabbing the grip you also have two points of impact for the recoil. If this isn't tough enough to master you now have a bolt carrier the size of a truck axle banging back and forth. I have yet to load a bipod and shoot for shit with my semi. Shooting with a pack or bull bag I can do ok.
On our weekly range visits I had a few guys wanting to try out my semi gun . I'll be shooting less than moa groups then have a bolt gun guy shoot 2-3 moa ? This is a guy who was shooting good groups with a bolt gun ?
I don't claim to be the resident gun expert here I just have some time behind guns and thought I would share.
Easy_E is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.33838 seconds with 82 queries