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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #61
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Devil's advocate, and this has been debated ad nausium... if legislation should only address actions that involve one person affecting another person's rights; then both abortion and murder would be in violation since both involve one person deciding to kill another. Along the same lines, even murder of a burgular in self defense would be a violation of human rights. As would the death penalty. Now, don't get me wrong. I am against abortion, murder and the death penalty; but it seems like your position hand selects which violations you are going to prosecute, which is not unlike the point of view that religious beliefs may affect legislation.
Ones person rights end where another's start. Deciding where that point is is the courts job.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #62
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Again, this affects his "electability" but he is free to express his religious beliefs. Mind you, this is coming from a Christian (me) about Romney who is not a Christian.

Regarding the contraception issue, this can be construed as a violation of the first ammendment rights to practice religion free from prosecution. In the case of the catholic organizations (which also, I am also not a catholic); they have the freedom/right to say that they will not provide contraception to their employees since it is strictly against their religious beliefs.
I completely agree. He is free to say whatever he pleases, but as you also eluded to, it affected his mainstream electability. It's too bad he couldn't have been more neutral on the social issues.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #63
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I think Romney and the GOP's biggest problem was managing the "sound bite " campaign. They don't seem to understand that anything that say, in any setting, public or private, can be recorded and uploaded to the internet instantly.

While maybe it was true that 47% would never vote for him, for someone that already came across as from the elite uber-rich, it was a stupid thing to say.

And as someone that has been involved with companies that has sent jobs overseas, he should have checked on the validity of the news report he was siting when he claimed that all Jeep production was going to China.

Those 2 comments, plus a few stupid things said by others in the GOP about rape probably cost him the election.
Yes, it's so aggrevating when the candidate puts their foot in their mouth.


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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #64
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Ones person rights end where another's start. Deciding where that point is is the courts job.
Agreed.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #65
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I completely agree. He is free to say whatever he pleases, but as you also eluded to, it affected his mainstream electability. It's too bad he couldn't have been more neutral on the social issues.
Agreed
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #66
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Devil's advocate, and this has been debated ad nausium... if legislation should only address actions that involve one person affecting another person's rights; then both abortion and murder would be in violation since both involve one person deciding to kill another. Along the same lines, even murder of a burgular in self defense would be a violation of human rights. As would the death penalty. Now, don't get me wrong. I am against abortion, murder and the death penalty; but it seems like your position hand selects which violations you are going to prosecute, which is not unlike the point of view that religious beliefs may affect legislation.
Abortion- as the Brits say, that's a sticky wicket.

The problem with this is it begs to be a black or white issue (not race) but is in reality mainly grey. I'm not going to get into the whole 'when does life begin' argument, but let's just take it as the religious right puts it- 'life begins at conception'. Under that definition, any abortion is wrong. Well, at least in the instance of a two parent, middle class average home where the child may get loving parents who can provide and has access to decent education, etc.... but not too many of those families are in line at the clinic.

If the child in question will be born into a lower class, single parent home, possibly abusive, maybe exposed to drugs, poor schools, crime, etc.... is that a 'good life'?

Yes, those are extremes, as most examples are. Circumstances should dictate actions. Yes, adoption is an option. So is stuffing a towel in the newborn's mouth and holding it under water in the toilet. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen. We do not live in a perfect world.

Life is about options. Abortion should be an option. Contrary to what some believe, it is not an easy way out. I know women who had abortions 20 years ago that still grieve about their choice- but admit that the child would have had a poor life if they had carried to term at that time in their life.

There really are no easy answer to tough questions, you do what you can and live with the results.

Side note- I lived in an apartment complex that had only one parking space per unit. At that time I was in favor of the death penalty for parking violations....
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:24 PM   #67
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Abortion- as the Brits say, that's a sticky wicket.

The problem with this is it begs to be a black or white issue (not race) but is in reality mainly grey. I'm not going to get into the whole 'when does life begin' argument, but let's just take it as the religious right puts it- 'life begins at conception'. Under that definition, any abortion is wrong. Well, at least in the instance of a two parent, middle class average home where the child may get loving parents who can provide and has access to decent education, etc.... but not too many of those families are in line at the clinic.

If the child in question will be born into a lower class, single parent home, possibly abusive, maybe exposed to drugs, poor schools, crime, etc.... is that a 'good life'?

Yes, those are extremes, as most examples are. Circumstances should dictate actions. Yes, adoption is an option. So is stuffing a towel in the newborn's mouth and holding it under water in the toilet. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen. We do not live in a perfect world.

Life is about options. Abortion should be an option. Contrary to what some believe, it is not an easy way out. I know women who had abortions 20 years ago that still grieve about their choice- but admit that the child would have had a poor life if they had carried to term at that time in their life.

There really are no easy answer to tough questions, you do what you can and live with the results.

Side note- I lived in an apartment complex that had only one parking space per unit. At that time I was in favor of the death penalty for parking violations....
Here is the problem with your argument - It states that the right to life (abortion) depends on socio-economic status. Is the same true of murder, that murder of some bum who is homeless, starving on the street is OK because they don't have ideal living conditions?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #68
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Here is the problem with your argument - It states that the right to life (abortion) depends on socio-economic status. Is the same true of murder, that murder of some bum who is homeless, starving on the street is OK because they don't have ideal living conditions?
I don't know.

That's what makes this tough. By saying all life is sacred, do you inadvertently create the person that becomes a mass murderer?

Again, I have no answer. I would have the utmost respect for any politician with the guts to say 'I don't know'

Edit- Something I discovered in my 20's is that if abortion was legal in 1961, there was about a 50/50 chance I would not be here. Still doesn't change my support for the option.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 07:34 AM   #69
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I hate Christians? News to me.

I defend your right to practice your religion, in fact I encourage you to do so. But, since I choose NOT to adhere to any religion, I do not wish my government to force a particular set of values upon me.

For example, if someone is against gay marriage and abortions, then they shouldn't marry a person of the same sex and they should carry a baby to full term and be responsible for it's upbringing. But since those are personal decisions, the government has no business interfering.

Now, if someone chooses to hide in the woods and shoot randomly at passing cars, the government has a duty to intervene. This action can affect anyone.
These actions can also affect a society.
Abortion affects the life of the baby.
Gay marriage affects society as a whole. There is an agenda by this group and they are not afraid to hide it.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 07:46 AM   #70
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These actions can also affect a society.
Abortion affects the life of the baby.
Gay marriage affects society as a whole. There is an agenda by this group and they are not afraid to hide it.
Agreed that abortion affects the life of the baby. So does being born 'unwanted'.

But how does gay marriage affect society as a whole? You do understand that the major reason gays want marriage rights is so they qualify for 'spouse benefits' on insurance the same as hetero couples?

I don't want to marry a dude, but if two people are in a committed relationship I have no problem with them getting the same insurance and tax benefits as hetero couples. Either everyone qualifies, or no one qualifies.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #71
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How about Rice/Palin for 2016. If nothing else it would be a sweet porno.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #72
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These actions can also affect a society.
Abortion affects the life of the baby.
Gay marriage affects society as a whole. There is an agenda by this group and they are not afraid to hide it.
Neither has any effect on your life. If Christians would just butt out from things that don't effect them, thereby losing the holier than thou attitude, I think you may be able to salvage the respect lost by your desire to control others. These issues will continue to progress regardless of the Christian stance (which is also changing by some) so you may want to position yourselves as a bit more accepting of others' choices, or continue down the same path and vanish into obscurity.

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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:11 AM   #73
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Agreed that abortion affects the life of the baby. So does being born 'unwanted'.

But how does gay marriage affect society as a whole? You do understand that the major reason gays want marriage rights is so they qualify for 'spouse benefits' on insurance the same as hetero couples?

I don't want to marry a dude, but if two people are in a committed relationship I have no problem with them getting the same insurance and tax benefits as hetero couples. Either everyone qualifies, or no one qualifies.
If the baby is not wanted by the mother because of inconvience there are plenty of couples that would adopt the baby. To murder an unborn child is not a way out to make the life of the mother less complicated. She is still a mother, but a mother with a dead baby.

Marriage is society's mechanism of increasing the likelihood that children will be born and raised by the two people responsible for bringing them into the world - their mother and father.

There are states that do allow same sex couples to have the same benefits as married couples.
It is the redefinision of mariage is what they want to do.
Throughout history the defention of marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #74
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Neither has any effect on your life. If Christians would just butt out from things that don't effect them, thereby losing the holier than thou attitude, I think you may be able to salvage the respect lost by your desire to control others. These issues will continue to progress regardless of the Christian stance (which is also changing by some) so you may want to position yourselves as a bit more accepting of others' choices.
If society does not stand up for the sanctity of life, who will. The unborn has no say in the matter.
An immoral society does affect everybody, even the ones who sit on the side lines and say nothing.
Abortion up to 9 months is acceptable to you? And many others who think on the same lines as you.
Do you think that abortion should continue outside the mothers womb because of birth defect?
If so then why do we have murders in jails? By your standards we should open the doors and let all murders out.
A life is a life and I don't think we should snuff it out because of inconvience.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #75
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If the baby is not wanted by the mother because of inconvience there are plenty of couples that would adopt the baby. To murder an unborn child is not a way out to make the life of the mother less complicated. She is still a mother, but a mother with a dead baby.

Marriage is society's mechanism of increasing the likelihood that children will be born and raised by the two people responsible for bringing them into the world - their mother and father.

There are states that do allow same sex couples to have the same benefits as married couples.
It is the redefinision of mariage is what they want to do.
Throughout history the defention of marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman.
You realize that stagnant thinking will render your group irrelevant, right? If you truly care for the core lessons of Christianity (The Golden Rule, etc.) you will need to change with the times or your group will disappear. If you dwell on these small issues that impact you little to none, your prove that you don't truly care about the big picture of Christianity and are more out to control others and prove a point. Look at the big picture before Christianity is nothing more than a blurb in history books.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #76
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aber,

Scott2.0 is right, the extreme conservative views you have are turning off the fiscally responsible republican party views and creating a stronger democratic party. Alienating yourselves, hurting the entire country, by being too far conservative and pushing other repub/conservative voters to the left.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:28 AM   #77
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If society does not stand up for the sanctity of life, who will. The unborn has no say in the matter.
An immoral society does affect everybody, even the ones who sit on the side lines and say nothing.
Abortion up to 9 months is acceptable to you? And many others who think on the same lines as you.
Do you think that abortion should continue outside the mothers womb because of birth defect?
If so then why do we have murders in jails? By your standards we should open the doors and let all murders out.
A life is a life and I don't think we should snuff it out because of inconvience.
I can actually agree with the majority of your stance on abortion. I would never advocate that it's a form of birth control and personally, I only think it should be an option in situations of rape or when the mother's life is on the line. That said, liberty is about choice and I firmly believe that it should be a choice up until a certain point in the pregnancy. That's where the line gets gray, I agree.

I was more so referring to your opposition of gay marriage, which I firmly believe has little to no effect on your life and needs to be dropped by Christians if you want to begin increasing, or at least maintaining, your numbers.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #78
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If the baby is not wanted by the mother because of inconvience there are plenty of couples that would adopt the baby. To murder an unborn child is not a way out to make the life of the mother less complicated. She is still a mother, but a mother with a dead baby.
There are plenty of couples that will adopt a white, healthy baby. Not so many for black crack babies. A friend of my mother's did foster care for the unwanted children, right up until one of them tried to slit her throat. She has a slightly different outlook now

Marriage is society's mechanism of increasing the likelihood that children will be born and raised by the two people responsible for bringing them into the world - their mother and father.

There are states that do allow same sex couples to have the same benefits as married couples.
It is the redefinision of mariage is what they want to do.
Throughout history the defention of marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman.

That is a Religious definition, not a legal one.
You have to be able to view life from a different angle than your own, or else you are imposing your values on others.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:01 AM   #79
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Sounds to me like your statement is pretty much telling everybody to get rid of religious people....................could it be you are talking out both sides of your mouth? Just asking?
I think what he is trying to get to, and something that I tend to agree with is this.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread where he was going head to head with aber. The typical Republican for years was a succesful white christian. Over time those christian values began to get challenged, other religions or non religions moved into our country through legal immigration, and over time being gay became more socially acceptable. The "hardcore" right conservative remained a republican but also because of the new "norm" of "other" beliefs and our country's push for tolerance of other peoples beleif's many "borderline" /conservatives have been "pushed" or "pulled" to the left by the extreme right wing conservatives who remain "intolerant" of other SOCIAL ideals that are not necessarily "harming" anyone.

Unfortunately what I believe this has caused is a slippery slope of voters voting on social issues, rather than on fiscal policy, concern for national security, protection of the constitution, etc.

I know I don't care about gay marriage, you wanna do it, fine do it. That's not how I felt a few years back. Do I care about religion? No, not so much, worship who you want, believe what you want to believe. I'm sure there are some other issues out there that would be good examples, but these come to mind quickly and easily.

The problem is that many voters don't vote on facts, policies, and budgets, they vote on emotions, fear mongering, and union pressures.....

It's shrinking the republican party, part of this is in my eyes due in part to the extreme christian conservatives.

I'm not trying to poke at anyone with those beliefs, because again I don't care where you stand with that stuff. I have gay friends, and I have friends who would have a heart attack if they were in the same room as one of my gay friends. I live in sin (not married but live with girlfriend) we both had children out of wedlock, and we don't go to church on sunday, so I figure I am smack dab in the middle of gay marriage and the Christian family. Giving me a pretty good level ground to stand on and cast an opinion in both directions.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:38 AM   #80
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WOW.

Every thread, no matter what the subject is 6 degrees to crazy around here.

Stupidity does not live with one party, or one religion or one ideal. Stupidity is an equal opportunity employer, it just loves finding those who are complacent.

Now, I'm going to try to bring this back around to the conversation I tried to start in my original post.

Let me clarify that I am a left leaning moderate, yet I am fiscally conservative. I'm God believing, college educated, and predominantly a Democrat in my voting habits. I very rarely vote a straight ticket however.

I am not happy with the extremes we have seen in our two-party system.

I want a party built on the twin imperatives of fiscal responsibility and social progressivism. Sadly, in it's current state, the GOP can no longer be that party any more than it could nominate their patron saint Ronald Reagan were he alive today.

Here's where it gets exciting for 2016.

The Republican party has an opportunity. Just hear me out:

I think the moderate, silent majority were blindsided, caught up in a game that unfortunately you could not get out of. You could not separate yourselves from social issues that many of you didn't see as being the primary goal of your party.

Essentially you were sold a bill of goods you didn't want to buy from the mainstream media (you also had a few knuckleheads who simply said some stupid things....real idiots). More damaging, you didn't reach out to others who share your views and ideas, and who are just as important and influential to national progress.

Bottom line......the economy (spending, taxes, pensions, etc.) somehow got replaced with social issues of religion, abortion, gay rights, and immigration.

That fear from the old party didn't play well and the voice of the people was loud and clear.

Now that the smoke and dust has settled, we need to recognize a new opportunity. I have an enormous smile on my face. I am a fiscal conservative and I know things have to change.

That change has become a warm ray of light. Extremely calming...and why? Because it's the right thing to do!!! Change can be difficult but it can also be exciting.

I'm so looking forward to a new Republican Party moving forward with new leadership, new members, a new platform, and an overall new face lift. So with that said, as a disgruntled American (and yes, a democrat) this is what I'm looking for in a GOP candidate with regard to several social issues:

Question - Abortion. Answer - "It's the law of the land and I follow the law. Although this area is not my main focus or concern, I hold a high regard for the decision of the Supreme Court, more importantly I respect ones individual decisions".

Question - Gay rights. Answer - "Love is a great and wonderful thing. I support anyone who wishes to commemorate that love with whoever they choose to spend the rest of their life with".

Question - Immigration. Answer - "The path for a better life will always be open to those who want to fulfill the American Dream and become a U.S. citizen. It's the foundation to who we are and what we've become".

Question - Religion. Answer - "I have a deep and personal relationship with God. When I'm in my house of worship I focus on ways to make me a better man. Outside of my house of worship I focus on ways to make my community a better place".


This is not the end of the world people. This is a new beginning. We need to work together, on both sides of the table, to rise the expectation of our leaders. both democratic and republican.

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