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Old October 25th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #21
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I would not hesitate using an AR but never have. If I had to choose one gun to use in MI for the remainder of my time, it would be my Ruger 44 Mag Carbine. I can't imagine needing anything else for average hunting in this state. For change up I have used an sks 7.62X39 and a 7 Mag. The 7 Mag made a mess but the sks actually worked very well. Hell, this topic has me thinking I may have to get the sks out again.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
Both the 12 gauge and 30-30 are fantastic rounds for the deer woods. I would even say those are some Michigan deer hunting favorites. I didn't make this post to argue that .223 or other small bore rifles are supreme deer hunting calibers. I have seen posts on this forum and others that ask "Is .223 enough gun for deer?" I figured a thread dedicated to that question with real life experiences would be interesting and informative. I personally use 30 cal or larger for whitetail but have shot one with .223. Just wanted to share my experience and hear others.
Is the .223 enough, sure, but it's marginal at best. I have shot a deer with a .223 at 30 yards, it ran 100 yards virtually no blood to track, I'll never do that again. With so many better choices to hunt with why would you use one? After a 100 yards the energy the bullet has drops like a rock, so range is very limited, not an attribute you look for in a rifle.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 07:52 AM   #23
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Thanks Bullhed78.
Iwasn't meaning to hijack the other thread.Was more curious than anything.
As far as shooting goes,yes up north I have always used a 30-30 or my Rem.7mag :).
As far as down state I typically use my 50 cal.Muzzleloader.
But as I said in the other thread was curious on the .223 being that I built 2 of them this year and thought..why not.
I would only aim at the head with that small of a caliber anyways.If you can shoot a 1/2 pound Tannerite target consistently with 1 shot at 150 yards.Then why not try it.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #24
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I would only aim at the head with that small of a caliber anyways.If you can shoot a 1/2 pound Tannerite target consistently with 1 shot at 150 yards.Then why not try it.
For the above mentioned reasons of a gust of wind greatly affecting that extremely light bullet, lack of energy at 150 yards and the much higher chance of not killing the deer and leaving it to run around with half its jaw ripped off to die a slow and horrible death.

This is where being a responsible AND ethical hunter comes in. You have far better weapons for the job that will drastically increase your chances of a clean and fast kill.

You can sit in a deer stand, wait for a deer to walk up and then drop out of it and beat it to death with a baseball bat. Why would you though unless you have some sick and twisted desire to inflict undue suffering and torture on an animal.

I'm a hunter myself. I don't get pleasure out of watching the animal suffer. Noticing the other replies in this thread... I'm not alone in that aspect. There's a big difference in taking a deer and honoring the animal, tradition and the ways of our forefathers versus going out to the woods just to kill something.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #25
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I understand where your coming from SS.Thats exactly the reason this thread was started was to find out the possibilities and hear some replies from those who had.
I am in no way an unethical hunter...Hell I've even used my tags on, and taken other deer that were wounded by one of the many idiots that feel they have to empty their guns on one animal.
I have and always will live by the 1 shot 1 kill rule,and instilled that into both of my sons when they were old enough to start shooting and hunting.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #26
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I understand where your coming from SS.Thats exactly the reason this thread was started was to find out the possibilities and hear some replies from those who had.
I am in no way an unethical hunter...Hell I've even used my tags on, and taken other deer that were wounded by one of the many idiots that feel they have to empty their guns on one animal.
I have and always will live by the 1 shot 1 kill rule,and instilled that into both of my sons when they were old enough to start shooting and hunting.
That's good to hear.

Just to drive the point home for the armchair snipers on here talking about aiming for the head with their .223.

This is what you could very easily cause.

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Old October 26th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #27
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That's good to hear.

Just to drive the point home for the armchair snipers on here talking about aiming for the head with their .223.

This is what you could very easily cause.

That is a sad pic. Apparently it is not as uncommon as I thought. Dougstephvoor mentioned in another thread that he has personally shot the lower jaw off a deer and felt horrible about it. Several years ago my father shot the lower jaw off a deer with a 30-06 in a swamp. We don't know what caused the bullet to stray but it happened. We tracked that deer for hours and hours with no luck. My father felt horrible about it also. Unfortunately killing isn't always a pretty thing. I agree that taking head shots will increase the possibility of incidents like this happening but it is not the sole reason.
If you google search the subject of .223 for deer hunting you will find lots of facts/arguments on both sides of the fence. I had find out for myself. There was no blood trail from the deer I shot although it expired very quickly. Had it ran farther would there have been a blood trail? I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say the blood trail would have been minimal. Will I hunt whitetail with my .223 again? I'm not sure, probably. If for some reason or another I could only shoot my .223 would I continue to hunt? Absolutely, I would do it in a heartbeat.
As with any round/weapon you have to know the effective range. I agree that after 100 yards the effectiveness of a .223 for whitetails is going to start to decrease rapidly.
I have a hard time believing that people go out with intentions of being an unethical hunter trying to intentionally wound deer. I do believe that there are lots of people out there that make poor decisions with undesirable results. As with anything in life there are consequences for decisions; good or bad. If you continue you educate yourself, know the limitations of your skill/equipment and are confident in your decision chances are your outcome will be good. If you refuse to learn, are ignorant to the limitations of your skill/equipment and are cocky chances are your outcome is going to be less than desirable.
This is like the vs debate. There are arguments for both. Is one right or wrong? You have to make that choice and stand behind it.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 02:33 PM   #28
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Old October 26th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #29
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Whiskey is better LMFAO
This all started because of you
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Old October 26th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #30
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Whiskey is better LMFAO
This all started because of you
Yup and now I just sit back and watch
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Old October 26th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
That is a sad pic. Apparently it is not as uncommon as I thought. Dougstephvoor mentioned in another thread that he has personally shot the lower jaw off a deer and felt horrible about it. Several years ago my father shot the lower jaw off a deer with a 30-06 in a swamp. We don't know what caused the bullet to stray but it happened. We tracked that deer for hours and hours with no luck. My father felt horrible about it also. Unfortunately killing isn't always a pretty thing. I agree that taking head shots will increase the possibility of incidents like this happening but it is not the sole reason.
If you google search the subject of .223 for deer hunting you will find lots of facts/arguments on both sides of the fence. I had find out for myself. There was no blood trail from the deer I shot although it expired very quickly. Had it ran farther would there have been a blood trail? I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say the blood trail would have been minimal. Will I hunt whitetail with my .223 again? I'm not sure, probably. If for some reason or another I could only shoot my .223 would I continue to hunt? Absolutely, I would do it in a heartbeat.
As with any round/weapon you have to know the effective range. I agree that after 100 yards the effectiveness of a .223 for whitetails is going to start to decrease rapidly.
I have a hard time believing that people go out with intentions of being an unethical hunter trying to intentionally wound deer. I do believe that there are lots of people out there that make poor decisions with undesirable results. As with anything in life there are consequences for decisions; good or bad. If you continue you educate yourself, know the limitations of your skill/equipment and are confident in your decision chances are your outcome will be good. If you refuse to learn, are ignorant to the limitations of your skill/equipment and are cocky chances are your outcome is going to be less than desirable.
This is like the vs debate. There are arguments for both. Is one right or wrong? You have to make that choice and stand behind it.
Perfect response.

The main reason I can't understand why someone would hunt a whitetail or mule deer with a .223 is how inappropriate the cartridge is in fundamental design for the task at hand.

The .223/5.56 is designed to WOUND humans. Not kill. It's main purpose is for a man to go down and his buddies to help him off the battlefield therefore removing multiple combatants with one shot.

Why would you try to use it to kill an animal that is not only the same size (more often BIGGER) than a human being but also far heartier?

If you have an AR-15 in your safe then (especially in Michigan) you most likely have something that would be FAR more effective for the task at hand i.e., 30-30, 30-06, .270, 7MM, 12 gauge.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #32
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The .223/5.56 is designed to WOUND humans. Not kill. It's main purpose is for a man to go down and his buddies to help him off the battlefield therefore removing multiple combatants with one shot.
Not defending the cartridge, but this is internet myth.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 07:00 AM   #33
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Not defending the cartridge, but this is internet myth.
Sure isn't a myth in the military. We are also trained from the get go on that specific limitation and how to overcome it.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #34
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Not defending the cartridge, but this is internet myth.
Quote:
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Sure isn't a myth in the military. We are also trained from the get go on that specific limitation and how to overcome it.
This is going to be good.

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Old October 27th, 2012, 05:04 PM   #35
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Yeah, the case length on the .243 is a little too long to work in the ar-15 platform, so they started making the .243 wssm for it. I would love to do an ar-10 build eventually, but that's on a long list of wants.

And I made a mistake, the 70 grain bullets are closer to 3500 fps, the 55 grain which I used to use for 'yotes are closer to 4k.
.243 is the same size casing as .308, just necked down. I also have a .243 and I shoot hornday 60gr Vmax @3850fps.

Keep in mind people use to kill deer with sharpened sticks! It will work, as long as you put it in the right spot!

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Old October 27th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #36
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.243 is the same size casing as .308, just necked down. I also have a .243 and I shoot hornday 60gr Vmax @3850fps.

Keep in mind people use to kill deer with sharpened sticks! It will work, as long as you put it in the right spot!
Used to?

I still do.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #37
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as far as i know the round has to be 6 mm or bigger for use on deer in mi
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Old October 27th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #38
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From the 2012 MI hunting guide.
All Firearm Deer Seasons-Rifle Zone (See page 12)
In the rifle zone, deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, crossbows, bows and arrows, shotguns and muzzleloading firearms including black powder handguns. It is legal to hunt deer in the rifle zone with any caliber of firearm except a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire (rifle or handgun). During the firearm deer seasons, a firearm deer hunter may carry afield a bow and arrow, crossbow and firearm. Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons for restrictions during this season.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #39
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From the 2012 MI hunting guide.
All Firearm Deer Seasons-Rifle Zone (See page 12)
In the rifle zone, deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, crossbows, bows and arrows, shotguns and muzzleloading firearms including black powder handguns. It is legal to hunt deer in the rifle zone with any caliber of firearm except a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire (rifle or handgun). During the firearm deer seasons, a firearm deer hunter may carry afield a bow and arrow, crossbow and firearm. Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons for restrictions during this season.
That's what i thought but was too lazy to look in my book
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #40
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It is in most states but Michigan only outlaws .22s and other smaller rimfires for deer.

Why you would want to use a round that just barely does the job compared to the plethora of much more effective and appropriate calibers is beyond me.

What's so wrong with 30-30? It'll perform better in the ranges you would use a .223 in and the weapon is much much cheaper (and much nicer.)
Barely does the job, no. It works extremely well. In a world that everyone thinks bigger is better, they need to stop and think for a minute. Size is only part of the equation. Terminally velocity of smaller rounds create a shock and wound channel that is equal if not greater to some of the larger slower rounds. Last year I used a .223 for three deer kills. All 3 quickly killed the animal in a humane way. First kill, 55 grain core lokt at 50 yrds. Heart shot, went 40 yds. Second kill 55 grain core lokt at 70 yds. Double lung, went 50 yds. Third, 55 grain hornady tap to the neck 30 yd shot. Dropped in its tracks. These kills were just after a kill with my 30.06 150 grain core lokt ,heart shot at 40 yds. Went 50 yds.

Response to the 30-30. Nothing is wrong with this round, in fact it is possibly the best upper michigan round for deer in many ways. With that said, that's why I'm using my ak47 to deer hunt this year. Why? Compare the ballistics yourself. Many people ask why I would even use this as a hunting rifle, well once you compare the ballistics you'll see why.

On another note, are we forgetting that tons of deer are killed humanely each year by arrows. These typically only have somewhere in the realm of 75 lb ft of force at impact in comparison to hundreds or even thousands of lb ft of force generated by rifle and shotgun cartridges.

I will continue to use small bore rifles, big bore rifles, shotguns, bows, or what're weapon I decide to use when I wake up, and I will never question if it will work, because I know it will. I take the time to make sure whatever I use is accurate, I practice, and when the time comes I will effectively kill what I am aiming at, and if it doesn't, it was my fault not the weapon. You can kill anything, with anything, at anytime, if used the right way and put in the right spot.
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