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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:16 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
Well, you didn't post actual bible verses. Exodus 22:20 for example does not say, in any translation that I could find, what you posted above.

The verse says " "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."

Which you will tell me is the same thing, but I can assure you if you read the entire verse, it is not.
OK that was one. Lets look at some others.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
King James Version (KJV)
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Not much question there that it mean kill, since it says it 3 times.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #122
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Deuteronomy 17:12-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.
More death.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:22 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
But in the Old Testiment it does. Jesus responded when questioned about if the OT law hold true and he said "Every jot and tittle."

Here's some more Bible love for you to think about:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesnít receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who donít believe in him. Jude 5

Now you said I could not find anything if the Bible about killing homosexuals. Here's a nice bit right here that you can verify in your very own Bible:

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)


So there's your proof. Now let the men discuss various belief systems here and you go cherry pick the parts of the Bible you wish to follow.
In the OT God did wipe people out for what every reason He decided to, He's God He can do anything He wants.
In the NT the connection to God is through Jesus Christ. He died for our sins. He was the ultimate sacrifice God made. His only Son.
The quote you posted in Romans talks about society and its sin.
They do not follow Him so he allowed them to continue in thier sin. "They deliberatly choose to believe lies". So He abandoned them to thier shamful desires.
Here he talks about today and our society.
He is talking about you. fully aware of God's death penalty, and the last sentence they(you) encourage others to do them also.
Kinda reminds me of your comments in the other thread about. I don't care, how you will raised your girls to know what to do. The morning after pill, condoms, etc.
God does work in mysterious ways and you posted all this and you are this man. Time to have that talk with God, maybe join your wife and girls in church on Sunday.

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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
I was refering to the actual verse as denoted by book and location. The other stuff is a brief synopsis.

So you do you destroy someone without killing them?
Yes the body can be killed, but the spirit lives on forever. We were created as spiritual beings. Our soul can never die.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #124
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What I beleive:

I believe that I am a Sinner. That my actions to get to heaven are like dirty tampons (it's in the bible) to God. That I am in so much need to be rescued from my current state that I have only the ability and need to hold Fast to Jesus Christ. That even sometimes, he's doing the holding because I don't want to.

I also believe that there is an enemy who is very cunning and has woven a very rich lie into alot of people's lives that they except with out even knowing it is a lie. I also believe that the enemy is has a large number and that his army works daily to keep God's children from God. That they will one day be defeated by my Savior that, although very timid on his first trip, will be the greatest warrior to walk the face of this earth on his Second trip to defeat our enemy.

I believe that the 'church' is corrupt but only, if anything, to show the world that even the ones that believe can't get it right and need to be Saved even more! That it is the Church's job to love people, take care of people, and, if the opportunity arises, to share it's inability to meet God's standards and how it has been saved through the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That it should NEVER see it's self above any person but, to be blessed to see it's self a servant of EVERYMAN to further the Gospel Of Jesus Christ.

I believe the bible to be God inspired and, with a better understanding, whole. Being whole as in one big story of God getting his Children back, again and again, and finally through Jesus Christ, once and for all. That the odd, and many, stories of failures, imperfect people, and sinners proves time and time again to point to Christ as our ONLY hope for Salvation.

It's very cool to see the stories of redemption for people on this board. I'll try and check back here often but my job has me very busy and when I'm not working I'm spending time with a little 15 year old that thinks the world of me and his mommy (and, in Feb, his new sibling)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadcooper55 View Post
My question to all of you in this thread is do you truly live as good of a life as you think you do? Do you judge that weird chubby kid that is wearing skin tight jeans and a pink Mohawk that you see in the mall? I don't mean do you comment about, I mean do you think to yourself "what an idiot" or "I'm glad that's not my kid." Do you indulge in alcohol just once in a while more than you should and maybe catch a bit of a buzz. Do you own more things than you probably should to live a meager existance? So on and so on and so on...... If the answer to any of these questions is yes do you feel at all hypocritical? I know all you have to do is ask the guy in the sky for forgivness and it is all good, No harm done. Christians generally take the rules and twist them around so that it fits their lifestyle and they don't have to sacrifice anything or be a truly good person. Don't get me wrong I'm not calling you bad people, that is not my intention at all. I am just asking if you are true Christians or just weekend warriors?
1. Most Definatly not. 2 Even though I know I shouldn't, I do. And to answer the hypocritical question, yes. I do.

Here's the thing though. That just proves, in my mind, that I need Jesus that much more. That I AM a sinner in need of Christ. If I had even the slightest idea that I could meet those standards by myself, I would think I could do it on my own. I do, however, through use of feeling hypocritical about my existence, realize I need the Grace and Mercy provided to me by God through Jesus Christ.

For most Christians it's not about meeting the standard. The "Born again" idea is that you realize how sinful and desperate you are for a savior and except Christ as that Savior. After that we can only humbly tell our stories of how we were 'saved'. That issue that alot of Christians have is the part after excepting Christ. The Humble part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
But in the Old Testiment it does. Jesus responded when questioned about if the OT law hold true and he said "Every jot and tittle."
But he also finished that verse by saying "But I have fullfilled it". God set forth the OT law so that Christ's sacrifice of mercy and Grace could be quantified through that law.
Quote:

Here's some more Bible love for you to think about:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
One of the issues I think you have is also your perspective on that culture. Which, in no small way, was completely different then ours. No Civil rights, no geneva convention, no NATO, ETC.. You either killed people, or you didn't exist anymore. Far be that that creator of the universe would understand that simple idea and allow his chosen people to continue by not dying.

Quote:
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5



Now you said I could not find anything if the Bible about killing homosexuals. Here's a nice bit right here that you can verify in your very own Bible:

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)


So there's your proof. Now let the men discuss various belief systems here and you go cherry pick the parts of the Bible you wish to follow.
Not once did it say (in the Romans reference) they were going to be dead. You typed it, or pasted it, and didn't even realize that, not once, did it say God would kill them for it or that the believers should. It merely said that God gave them up to thier devices. They were fully aware of God's standards, much like our country, but still decided to live according to what THEY wanted to do. You could go a stretch and even say that this proves God has given us Free will.

Last edited by L4CX; September 26th, 2012 at 08:49 AM.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 10:03 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
What I beleive:

I believe that I am a Sinner. That my actions to get to heaven are like dirty tampons (it's in the bible) to God. That I am in so much need to be rescued from my current state that I have only the ability and need to hold Fast to Jesus Christ. That even sometimes, he's doing the holding because I don't want to.

I also believe that there is an enemy who is very cunning and has woven a very rich lie into alot of people's lives that they except with out even knowing it is a lie. I also believe that the enemy is has a large number and that his army works daily to keep God's children from God. That they will one day be defeated by my Savior that, although very timid on his first trip, will be the greatest warrior to walk the face of this earth on his Second trip to defeat our enemy.

I believe that the 'church' is corrupt but only, if anything, to show the world that even the ones that believe can't get it right and need to be Saved even more! That it is the Church's job to love people, take care of people, and, if the opportunity arises, to share it's inability to meet God's standards and how it has been saved through the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That it should NEVER see it's self above any person but, to be blessed to see it's self a servant of EVERYMAN to further the Gospel Of Jesus Christ.

I believe the bible to be God inspired and, with a better understanding, whole. Being whole as in one big story of God getting his Children back, again and again, and finally through Jesus Christ, once and for all. That the odd, and many, stories of failures, imperfect people, and sinners proves time and time again to point to Christ as our ONLY hope for Salvation.

It's very cool to see the stories of redemption for people on this board. I'll try and check back here often but my job has me very busy and when I'm not working I'm spending time with a little 15 year old that thinks the world of me and his mommy (and, in Feb, his new sibling)



1. Most Definatly not. 2 Even though I know I shouldn't, I do. And to answer the hypocritical question, yes. I do.

Here's the thing though. That just proves, in my mind, that I need Jesus that much more. That I AM a sinner in need of Christ. If I had even the slightest idea that I could meet those standards by myself, I would think I could do it on my own. I do, however, through use of feeling hypocritical about my existence, realize I need the Grace and Mercy provided to me by God through Jesus Christ.

For most Christians it's not about meeting the standard. The "Born again" idea is that you realize how sinful and desperate you are for a savior and except Christ as that Savior. After that we can only humbly tell our stories of how we were 'saved'. That issue that alot of Christians have is the part after excepting Christ. The Humble part.




But he also finished that verse by saying "But I have fullfilled it". God set forth the OT law so that Christ's sacrifice of mercy and Grace could be quantified through that law.


One of the issues I think you have is also your perspective on that culture. Which, in no small way, was completely different then ours. No Civil rights, no geneva convention, no NATO, ETC.. You either killed people, or you didn't exist anymore. Far be that that creator of the universe would understand that simple idea and allow his chosen people to continue by not dying.



Not once did it say (in the Romans reference) they were going to be dead. You typed it, or pasted it, and didn't even realize that, not once, did it say God would kill them for it or that the believers should. It merely said that God gave them up to thier devices. They were fully aware of God's standards, much like our country, but still decided to live according to what THEY wanted to do. You could go a stretch and even say that this proves God has given us Free will.

You know I respect your choice because you are not pushy with your views. You say "This is what I believe in." not "This is what you should believe in. That goes a long ways.

You know I can find many examples of God's desire for human sacrafice and brutal punishment. I do not have time to post this right now. I also remember asking the Christian community about which laws of the OT hold true and which ones I can ignore. Nobody was able to answer my question.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 11:06 AM   #126
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Ok here is food for thought. what about people that kill other people because god told them to?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #127
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Ok here is food for thought. what about people that kill other people because god told them to?
God's dirt dwelling nemesis pretending to be God.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #128
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So you do you destroy someone without killing them?
ask someone who has been divorced and taken to the cleaners if they were "whole" or if it would be a good characterization to say they were 'destroyed'...
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Old September 26th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #129
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God's dirt dwelling nemesis pretending to be God.
but god told Abraham to kill his son. Hineni, he replied. this means Here I am, I am ready to do your bidding. the bible is full of people who are commanded by god to kill in his name. If a person truly believes god told them to do something how can you be sure its not god?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #130
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ask someone who has been divorced and taken to the cleaners if they were "whole" or if it would be a good characterization to say they were 'destroyed'...
lol, my first thought was debt, marriage and children.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #131
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The Book of Deuteronomy is often referred to as "the Law" in the context of that era - often referred to as a list of speeches given by Moses after 4 decades of wandering in the wilderness, a time when God was attempting to provide a framework for the Israelites to live according to the Covenant.

There are many here that have stated that "child molesters" should be introduced to .45 ACP Hollowpoints - regardless of what our current Legislative and Judicial systems dictate with respect to due process etc.

Now, make no mistake I most certainly do not accept child molestation as acceptable in any way shape or form. I find it as reprehensible as any normal/sane American. I also recognize that culturally speaking, that age of consent is a relatively subjective thing, and that in many cultures it is acceptable - even the norm to have pre-arranged marriages as young as 12 or 14 years of age. (For that matter, most 15 or 16 year olds would think nothing of trying to rail a 14 year old - we've even seen 12 year olds pregnant)

Anyway, I digress, to someone in that culture, your view points of riddling a 'molester' with hollowpoints is as savage and inhuman of a response as us White Anglo Saxon Protestants feel when we see a woman in the mideast stoned and beheaded in the town square.

I will also go out and state that I obviously do not agree with the thoughts of putting blasphemer's to death, etc., regardless of whether it is found in the Torah, the Old Testament, or the Quran.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #132
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Aisha Aisha

yet another reason I hate muslims. defend that ryebread.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #133
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The Book of Deuteronomy is often referred to as "the Law" in the context of that era - often referred to as a list of speeches given by Moses after 4 decades of wandering in the wilderness, a time when God was attempting to provide a framework for the Israelites to live according to the Covenant.

There are many here that have stated that "child molesters" should be introduced to .45 ACP Hollowpoints - regardless of what our current Legislative and Judicial systems dictate with respect to due process etc.

Now, make no mistake I most certainly do not accept child molestation as acceptable in any way shape or form. I find it as reprehensible as any normal/sane American. I also recognize that culturally speaking, that age of consent is a relatively subjective thing, and that in many cultures it is acceptable - even the norm to have pre-arranged marriages as young as 12 or 14 years of age. (For that matter, most 15 or 16 year olds would think nothing of trying to rail a 14 year old - we've even seen 12 year olds pregnant)

Anyway, I digress, to someone in that culture, your view points of riddling a 'molester' with hollowpoints is as savage and inhuman of a response as us White Anglo Saxon Protestants feel when we see a woman in the mideast stoned and beheaded in the town square.

I will also go out and state that I obviously do not agree with the thoughts of putting blasphemer's to death, etc., regardless of whether it is found in the Torah, the Old Testament, or the Quran.
I agree there is a difference between someone who rapes, molests children and someone who has sex with a minor. there is a difference between a child and a physically mature woman. my great gma was 16 when she got married and started on her litter of 15 kids.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #134
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

yet another reason I hate muslims. defend that ryebread.
I have never found anything worthwhile in exploring the muslim faith - honestly the spread of islamic faith puzzles me compared to other religions, as to me personally it seems more repression oriented than even the Crusades era Catholic Church (but then obviously I wasn't around then either)

And again, make no mistake I'm not defending it so much as just pointing out that culturally to say there is a divide is an understatement.

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I agree there is a difference between someone who rapes, molests children and someone who has sex with a minor. there is a difference between a child and a physically mature woman. my great gma was 16 when she got married and started on her litter of 15 kids.
legally, in our own civil laws there is very little distinction between someone that has sex with a minor, and someone that molests/rapes that minor.

if a child/minor is not legally able to make decisions/informed-consent then it is in fact force-able rape.

We Americans tend to like our own customs, and legal system (even with the flaws inherent in same) because for one we kind of understand it.

There are many, many different types of legalistic systems of governance in this world that because they are different, or they are 'old' we view as barbaric.

Again, not passing judgement on any of those systems or our own. But, I find it bizarre and tragically inconsistent that in our own legal system a "legally performed medical procedure" (abortion) is not a murder in the eyes of the law - but if one causes a miscarriage then one can in fact stand and face charges of murder...
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #135
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what bothers me is that a woman can get an abortion for various reasons but a person with a disease or injury that causes them great pain or physical degradation to a point where they no longer desire to live cannot seek relief through euthanasia. so much for separation of church and state.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:34 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
You know I respect your choice because you are not pushy with your views. You say "This is what I believe in." not "This is what you should believe in. That goes a long ways.

You know I can find many examples of God's desire for human sacrafice and brutal punishment. I do not have time to post this right now. I also remember asking the Christian community about which laws of the OT hold true and which ones I can ignore. Nobody was able to answer my question.
Like I said before Scott does have a way with words. I would really like to speak in a way that does not come across as being pushy or over bearing. I can only try and do better. With that being said....

There is plenty of confusion about the scriptures and the penalty of death and who deserves it and who don't. The confusion of God's word, the OT and the NT. The difference between the the Law and Salvation through Jesus Christ.
It is all difficult to understand even for Christians.
That is why Jesus says in John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him," Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
The word "see" can also mean to understand and comprehend the things of God.
In order to fully understand God people need to accept Jesus and ask Him for the "truth" they so desparately search for.
By asking for those answers here you will get half truths and mixed answers. I know I don't have all the answers. Only God knows a mans heart and only God can give you the answers you seek.
You need to ask Him because this debate goes on and on with the same questions and the answers never seem to get through.
People need to go to the source.
JESUS LIVES, ask Him.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #137
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Like I said before Scott does have a way with words. I would really like to speak in a way that does not come across as being pushy or over bearing. I can only try and do better. With that being said....

There is plenty of confusion about the scriptures and the penalty of death and who deserves it and who don't. The confusion of God's word, the OT and the NT. The difference between the the Law and Salvation through Jesus Christ.
It is all difficult to understand even for Christians.
That is why Jesus says in John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him," Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
The word "see" can also mean to understand and comprehend the things of God.
In order to fully understand God people need to accept Jesus and ask Him for the "truth" they so desparately search for.
By asking for those answers here you will get half truths and mixed answers. I know I don't have all the answers. Only God knows a mans heart and only God can give you the answers you seek.
You need to ask Him because this debate goes on and on with the same questions and the answers never seem to get through.
People need to go to the source.
JESUS LIVES, ask Him.
could jesus have meant reincarnation when he said born again?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #138
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what bothers me is that a woman can get an abortion for various reasons but a person with a disease or injury that causes them great pain or physical degradation to a point where they no longer desire to live cannot seek relief through euthanasia. so much for separation of church and state.



The separation of church and state, means the church cannot influence the people on how to vote or tax exempt status can be removed from the church.

The Johnson Amendment,

http://www.firebuilders.org/JAmCEC.htm
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #139
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could jesus have meant reincarnation when he said born again?
Nope.
He said, once to die then judgment. Not come back as something else and try to get better. Besides its not about getting better.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #140
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Nope.
He said, once to die then judgment. Not come back as something else and try to get better. Besides its not about getting better.
but isn't Jesus coming back to make things better?
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