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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #21
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Now I'm moving on further. I'm trying to understand if in Luke 23:43 where Jesus tells the thief on the cross "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Is Paradise referring to Heaven, or to Sheol (the afterlife dominion where Moses and Abraham rested until Jesus' salvation?

I found the following which I thought would be interesting to those debating the interpretation/validity of these passages:


Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable.
People have tried to deny the simple truths taught in Luke 16:19-31 by insisting that it is merely a parable and therefore has nothing to teach us regarding the place where the soul goes after death.

Many groups who deny the doctrine of eternal punishment (such as Jehovah's Witnesses, followers of Herbert Armstrong, some ultradispensationalists etc.) claim that this passage is a parable because they do not believe what it teaches about Hades. This passage clearly teaches that Hades is a place of conscious torment and suffering for the wicked. These groups think that if this passage is only a parable then they do not have to accept what it teaches about the condition of men following death. The Bible does not say that this was a parable. Even if it were a parable, it would indeed be a unique parable for the following reasons:

1. It would be the only parable in the Bible that describes certain things that are outside of the realm of human experience. All the other parables talk about things that we are familiar with such as birds, seed, fields, pearls, wheat, barns, leaven, fish, etc. (see Matthew 13, etc.). This passage is different because it talks about what happens to two men after death, and this is a realm where none of us have had any personal experience. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly or spiritual significance, but Luke 16 transcends the realm of the earthly.

2. It would be the only parable in the Bible that uses a proper name (Lazarus).

3. It would be the only parable in the Bible that makes mention repeatedly of a historical person--Abraham. Moreover, this historical person actually carries on a dialogue with the rich man! Indeed, mention is also made in this parable of Moses, another historical character. What other parable speaks of real, historical persons?

4. It would be the only parable in the Bible that describes the places where the dead go (Hades, Abraham's bosom, a place of torment).

5. It would be the only parable in the Bible that makes mention of angels. Compare Matthew 13 verses 24-30, 36-43, 47-49 where angels are mentioned in the explanation of the parable but not in the parable itself.

6. If Hades is not really a place of torment then this would be the only parable in the Bible where the Lord Jesus taught error instead of truth. GOD FORBID!

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hades.htm
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #22
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If you want everyone to come in here and agree with you go join a christfag forum.
Steveo, I'm not telling you to leave. In fact, I do hope you will stay and read. However, since the topic in this "Politics, Government, or Religion Chat" forum is dependent upon scripture which you don't believe, I still am uncertain how you can constructively contribute to the discussion.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #23
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Maybe we are reincarnated. Who’s to say otherwise?
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Steveo, I'm not telling you to leave. In fact, I do hope you will stay and read. However, since the topic in this "Politics, Government, or Religion Chat" forum is dependent upon scripture which you don't believe, I still am uncertain how you can constructively contribute to the discussion.

How do you know that your god is correct when there are so many others out there Allah, Shiva, Zeus ect?

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #25
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I just can't wait to see for myself. I was brought up a christian but have a hard time believing some of the hype presented in church and the private schools I went to.

I do think it is a good value system to follow and if your conscience bothers you about something you have done then you can repent and ask for forgiveness and they teach you if you mean if then you will be forgiven.

I find it hard to believe in heaven or hell but I do not like the idea of when we die we are done. That is a good motivator for alot of the christian religion.

Maybe it is all cerebral after you die and whatever you accept as a religion or what happens when you die is what will happen. Think happy be happy, think shitty be shitty.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #26
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How do you know that your god is correct when there are so many others out there Allah, Shiva, Zeus ect?

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
Because the thread topic is "where do Christians go when they die" which was followed by a question referring to scripture. The purpose of this thread is not to dismiss false gods or religions, simply to discuss the Christian belief of afterlife.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #27
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Maybe we are reincarnated. Who’s to say otherwise?
A great question for another thread. Scripturally though there is no foundation for the soul returning to earth as another entity (human or otherwise). If you start the thread, I will provide the scripture.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #28
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I would like to offer somethng for other questions reguarding the existence of Christ and
Many questions about Him.
A journalist called Lee Strobel investigated everything he could find on the person "Jesus Christ"
He wrote a book called, "The Case for Christ".
This is a book for many here on this site (skeptics)and Christians to help strengthen our faith.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
A great question for another thread. Scripturally though there is no foundation for the soul returning to earth as another entity (human or otherwise). If you start the thread, I will provide the scripture.
Lol
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #30
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Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.
There is no evidence that says anything about ghosts or people coming back as ghosts.
Demonic spirits but not ghosts.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #31
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I would like to offer somethng for other questions reguarding the existence of Christ and
Many questions about Him.
A journalist called Lee Strobel investigated everything he could find on the person "Jesus Christ"
He wrote a book called, "The Case for Christ".
This is a book for many here on this site (skeptics)and Christians to help strengthen our faith.
Lee Strobel's works have been used by some to build their arguments for Christ.

However, as many of his critics point out, his writing/approach is written in a way that mostly just reinforces the belief of those that already believe.

Atheists and critical agnostics delight in cutting apart his writing.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:28 PM   #32
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Lol
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Steveo, I'm not telling you to leave. In fact, I do hope you will stay and read. However, since the topic in this "Politics, Government, or Religion Chat" forum is dependent upon scripture which you don't believe, I still am uncertain how you can constructively contribute to the discussion.
What part of bring your flame suit don't you comprehend? I think your religion is A. Ridiculous and contradictory B. Your religion is the cause of 75% of the problems our society faces.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:35 PM   #34
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Also, there is no such thing as a soul.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #35
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What part of bring your flame suit don't you comprehend? I think your religion is A. Ridiculous and contradictory B. Your religion is the cause of 75% of the problems our society faces.
And yet for something that a) rediculous b)contradicotry and apparently not real; it certainly seems to pull you into the discussion. If you don't believe it, and it's not impacting your life, then what is your investment in the topic? Why spend your time and resources on something you think is fictitious?
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #36
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What part of bring your flame suit don't you comprehend? I think your religion is A. Ridiculous and contradictory B. Your religion is the cause of 75% of the problems our society faces.
75%? Intriguing.

Could you please outline the problems our society faces, and give us your line by line item of causation/correlation and how Christianity relates to said problems?

Are you generalizing all Christianity, or in particular taking aim at various denominations, sects?

Is there a particular translation of the Bible that should be cast aside? Or just certain Chapters?

If the entire book, would that also indicate that the same chapters that appear in other books such as the Torah, or whatever Mormon Books exist should also be cast aside?

Are you incorrectly lumping all Abrahamic religions in as Christianity since as for example the Jews and Muslims share several old testament beliefs, lineages, and prophets?

Are you really that bored to reply to the above?

Or just going to strut in like a pigeon and shit all over stuff and claim to be right?
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #37
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Lee Strobel's works have been used by some to build their arguments for Christ.

However, as many of his critics point out, his writing/approach is written in a way that mostly just reinforces the belief of those that already believe.

Atheists and critical agnostics delight in cutting apart his writing.
I am reading it now and it is a great read. It does reinforce my belief. He does go through his search in an investigative manner looking to find truth.
This is a tool mostly for believers and curious individuals. But like you said people that have no interest(steveo) could not appriciate it.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #38
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Jews Muslims and Jesus freaks all worship aspects of the same God. I am on the stationary bike doing my knee therapy. Why are you guys in here arguing this? Don't you have families jobs and unsaved heathens to convert?
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #39
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I am reading it now and it is a great read. It does reinforce my belief. He does go through his search in an investigative manner looking to find truth.
This is a tool mostly for believers and curious individuals. But like you said people that have no interest(steveo) could not appriciate it.
I too have read it. It did not reinforce my beliefs. Especially after reading some reviews of the book.

What I believe is constantly under review and scrutiny and challenge.

Some folks on both sides are happiest (or laziest?) by simply accepting what they believe and anything that reinforces, it rather than exercising their mind and grappling with it.

Regardless I don't believe that the internet/discussion forums/facebook, etc. is any place to properly convince or witness to folks about religion or politics - as for one, people seem to be unable to agree to disagree, and for two trolls exist.

To me, this sub-forum is mostly a diversion now and again.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:56 PM   #40
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Jews Muslims and Jesus freaks all worship aspects of the same God. I am on the stationary bike doing my knee therapy. Why are you guys in here arguing this?
see above. this place is a diversion. I took a late working lunch.

3 terminal service windows currently open watching various database processes run.

I'd rather be on my recumbent bike at home watching the Tigers
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