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Old September 3rd, 2012, 06:37 PM   #21
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1) agreed
2) wholly agreed!! All this data you have shows public workers gettign paid more than the private sector is false anyways, so yes, bring the publng sector on par with the private!! I'm all for it!! Whats the going salary for a Master degreed worker in the private sector right now?
3) agreed, however once you start down the road of reduction in wages, expect a reduction in service, sorry but people shouldn't be forced to work for free, nor should they be forced to do more for less.
4) you can do that already...wages are public information and are posted, you just have to look for them
In the private sector that Master's degree may not pay a nickel more than an undergrad degree. You invest in yourself to develop better skills which may enable you to progress. Teachers are of the few places where education means immediate compensation.

And as far as reducing wages, that would only be done in cases of sustained tax revenue reductions - where the tax income can't sustain the outlay, just like the private sector. While people won't work for free, it's reality that doing more with less happens.

And I'm not coming from a "they're all overpaid bums" place either. We just need to insert some controls into the process, because there are many examples of it getting out of hand - especially with the huge growth in public employees.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:10 PM   #22
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In the private sector that Master's degree may not pay a nickel more than an undergrad degree. You invest in yourself to develop better skills which may enable you to progress. Teachers are of the few places where education means immediate compensation.

And as far as reducing wages, that would only be done in cases of sustained tax revenue reductions - where the tax income can't sustain the outlay, just like the private sector. While people won't work for free, it's reality that doing more with less happens.

And I'm not coming from a "they're all overpaid bums" place either. We just need to insert some controls into the process, because there are many examples of it getting out of hand - especially with the huge growth in public employees.
this right here is a HUGE misconception...the public sector is shrinking BIG time...at least for who I work for...Not only is the current work force down, but big changes in the benefits, as well as big changes in salaries, is in giving back 6.5% over the last couple of years, all while still operating on a 2003 cost of living adjustment...so I'm not sure where this HUGE growth is, except some bullshit the media would like to play in an effort for some political gain. Now considering most places offer 2-3% cost of living adjustment per year, we are living at 1999 wages in 2012, so yea I can see where my salary is way out of wack

as far as degreed workers are considered...it is a FACT master degreed workers in the private sector make MORE than their counterparts in the public sector.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:11 PM   #23
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Going the extra mile is not always worth it, in fact you start doing that too much and people will begin to think that you SHOULD be going the extra mile. I'm not afraid of work, far from it...however I WILL not go the extra mile, I will do exactly what is expected of me. If I start picking up the slack where others left off, it promotes laziness on their parts, because they know someone will take care of what they were supposed to do for them, and secondly people will start expecting me to pick up the slack. And just because I won't go the extra mile, doesn't mean I have a bad attitude. What it means is I will do the job you pay me for. It will be done in an proficient manner, with little to no supervision, and it will be done right the first time. Why? Because I take pride in MY work..
This is the downside of your work environment and union. If you could be compensated for your extra efforts, you would move up the ladder and those that choose to do the basics will stay behind. Wouldn't it be great if you did that work and your boss called you into his office & said "HCH, I've really appreciated your extra drive. You're just the guy I need to be my right hand guy and with it comes another $15K a year salary". That's how the free market system works.

And don't for a minute tell me that it doesn't work that way in the real world. Been there, done that.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:52 PM   #24
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HCH won't find out though, he won't go the extra mile, just do "what he's paid to do" cause "that's not his job"
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:52 PM   #25
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This is the downside of your work environment and union. If you could be compensated for your extra efforts, you would move up the ladder and those that choose to do the basics will stay behind. Wouldn't it be great if you did that work and your boss called you into his office & said "HCH, I've really appreciated your extra drive. You're just the guy I need to be my right hand guy and with it comes another $15K a year salary". That's how the free market system works.

And don't for a minute tell me that it doesn't work that way in the real world. Been there, done that.
In a sales driven environment, or from a productivity/manufacturing stand point, sure. But how would that concept work in a world where your work is not tangible? Lets say cops for example. What do cops do? In their most basic sense they are the visible arm of the executive branch of the federal government whose sole propose is to defend the Constitution. How about teachers? How do you grade their performance? It is true that a teacher can make or break a child’s academic career, but I will say every child’s ability to learn is vastly different. So much so that majority of their success comes from circumstances beyond the teachers control, i.e., outside influences and cognitive development. Firefighter? If based on how fast they can put a fire out, then I pity the guy who gets called to a fire that won’t/can’t be put out.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:01 PM   #26
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In a sales driven environment, or from a productivity/manufacturing stand point, sure. But how would that concept work in a world where your work is not tangible? Lets say cops for example. What do cops do? In their most basic sense they are the visible arm of the executive branch of the federal government whose sole propose is to defend the Constitution. How about teachers? How do you grade their performance? It is true that a teacher can make or break a childís academic career, but I will say every childís ability to learn is vastly different. So much so that majority of their success comes from circumstances beyond the teachers control, i.e., outside influences and cognitive development. Firefighter? If based on how fast they can put a fire out, then I pity the guy who gets called to a fire that wonít/canít be put out.
I haven't worked at a company that hands out cost of living adjustments. Every professional job I have held was pay for performance. It's hard to measure my employees performance but I look at overall performance based on multiple factors when I rank them for raises. You can successfully allow management to rate performance instead of having standardized testing or specific task measurement. In the union scenario I would never have been able to take a girl who worked for me and busted her ass for six months, recommend her for a position instead of my three other employees with the same skillset who have been with me for years.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:20 PM   #27
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In a sales driven environment, or from a productivity/manufacturing stand point, sure. But how would that concept work in a world where your work is not tangible? Lets say cops for example. What do cops do? In their most basic sense they are the visible arm of the executive branch of the federal government whose sole propose is to defend the Constitution. How about teachers? How do you grade their performance? It is true that a teacher can make or break a childís academic career, but I will say every childís ability to learn is vastly different. So much so that majority of their success comes from circumstances beyond the teachers control, i.e., outside influences and cognitive development. Firefighter? If based on how fast they can put a fire out, then I pity the guy who gets called to a fire that wonít/canít be put out.
Teachers, Cops, and I'm pretty sure firefighters still get performance reviews. So someone has figured out how to make the non-tangible, tangible. And you can honestly tell me that you don't know the difference in your work place between the guy who goes the extra mile and the guy who doesn't?

One example I can give you is myself. I haven't had a single employer tell me they wouldn't hire me back. That I was one of the best employees they've had and they wish they could have 4 or 5 employees like me. Why? because I was always on time, I had a positive attitude, I communicated well, and I did my job to the best of my ability. If I just wanted to get a pay check I knew that I could show up a little late, be negative about it, make other people deal with things, and do the very least I could. No matter what your job is, there are plenty of things that key an employer into those that care and those that are just on cruse control, mostly before they even start to work.

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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:41 PM   #28
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this right here is a HUGE misconception...the public sector is shrinking BIG time...at least for who I work for...Not only is the current work force down, but big changes in the benefits, as well as big changes in salaries, is in giving back 6.5% over the last couple of years, all while still operating on a 2003 cost of living adjustment...so I'm not sure where this HUGE growth is, except some bullshit the media would like to play in an effort for some political gain. Now considering most places offer 2-3% cost of living adjustment per year, we are living at 1999 wages in 2012, so yea I can see where my salary is way out of wack

as far as degreed workers are considered...it is a FACT master degreed workers in the private sector make MORE than their counterparts in the public sector.
Agreed, state and local agencies have lost a lot of employees, it's the federal jobs that have skyrocketed. Since the state has been making changes, in my dept, we have taken a total hit of nearly 20%. My hourly wage is the same but the cost of everything else has gone up. But I'm still glad I have a job and still continue to provide my best for the taxpayers.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:44 PM   #29
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I didn't know doctors had their salaries bargained for, must be a damn good union. And of course I don't want my teachers earning minimum wage, don't be a moron.

Collective bargaining brings everybody to a middle ground, it doesn't reward the exceptional. There in lies the problem, we don't pay our teachers nearly enough to keep the really good ones in public schools, there are exceptions to that of course. Yes, unions make sure everyone has a decent wage but why should we settle on decent teachers or any public employee for that matter. Shouldn't we be striving to have the very best working for the public?

We're at the point now where we have enough labor laws to protect workers from a myriad of things. So now the only thing unions have left to bargain on are wages and benefits. Why not get rid of the wage cap that the unions have set and let performance be our guide.

I guess we'll just have to disagree..
you're a state employee, and didn't know that the State employs doctors?

no, I don't know if those doctors are in turn part of a collective bargaining unit, but I do know that the last time I meandered through the various state pay classifications, that there was a pay grade associated for a doctor they were seeking in the corrections department if I recall correctly (it's been since 2008 since I looked around there, so the passage of time may have fucked with my memory a bit)
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 08:58 PM   #30
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Teachers, Cops, and I'm pretty sure firefighters still get performance reviews.
None are a universal truth. Very often, they are only given performance reviews to satisfy new hire / probational requirements. Or, in anticipation of a future pay grade change/promotion.

as a non-cop/fire/teacher example - when I worked for Oakland County, I had a total of 3 reviews in the 14 years I was employed there.

1 was for an early merit double bump raise cause I was busting my hump and doing the work of 2 or 3 of the existing staff appraisers, including sticking my neck out to go to trial as an expert witness in tax disputes when nobody else was willing to.

the 2nd was for a promotion to the next classification, and another was when one of the HR Bosses retired and the newbie HR Boss in personnel was alarmed at the lack of annual performance reviews he saw in the files.

hell, for 4 years, I was on loan to an entirely different department, and half the time my actual bosses didn't communicate with those I was assigned to work projects with - I literally could come and go as I please if I wanted to.

they didn't even do an exit interview when I left.

the reviews at my current employer are laughable. most deal with interpersonal skills, and are worded so silk-gloved to avoid future lawsuits over what information is in the personnel file that they are useless for measuring/assessing employee worth.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:00 PM   #31
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cost of living increase?

u have been in a union too long!
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:07 PM   #32
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HCH won't find out though, he won't go the extra mile, just do "what he's paid to do" cause "that's not his job"
And the cause of that is the union. For the love of all things Holy, don't pick up a broom and clean up while you've got some down time, you'll get a grievance filed against you. And that brings us to only doing what you're paid to do. Doesn't really promote productivity.

We have some of that in our dept but only between techs and engineers doing each others work. I do my very best because in the end it's my name on the reports and I also take great pride in having a great finished product.

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I'm with Whiterhino on this one. While going the extra mile my bring more 'work' to your self, it also sets you apart from other people. In a non-union, performance based work place that means you go up the ladder. If your fellow employees don't want to go that extra mile they have no reason to complain when they don't get promoted.

IMO, a person that only does what they 'have' to do is lazy. I'd much rather have someone working for me that I ask to do something more and get a "yes sir, I'd be glad to" rather then "that's not part of my job, you're going to have to pay me more". Part of that is having the right kind of boss though. One that won't take advantage of you. But then there is the simple answer of "I'm sorry Sir, I don't want to add to much to my plate and sacrifice quality". And I honestly think that if you're the aforementioned 'set apart' employee, any smart employer would be willing to work with you.
Exactly. But, it's not really laziness in all situations. In a union environment there's no going up the ladder for better performance, just more work for you while your co-workers slack off and watch you pick it up, so that really promotes doing only what's expected.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 09:30 PM   #33
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you're a state employee, and didn't know that the State employs doctors?

no, I don't know if those doctors are in turn part of a collective bargaining unit, but I do know that the last time I meandered through the various state pay classifications, that there was a pay grade associated for a doctor they were seeking in the corrections department if I recall correctly (it's been since 2008 since I looked around there, so the passage of time may have fucked with my memory a bit)
No, I know we employ doctors, hell, we employ helicopter pilots too, but the "professional" jobs are normally "NREs" or Non Represented Employees. Same as the higher end engineer positions. But even those positions have a set amount on wages so that it's uniform across the state.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 10:35 PM   #34
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2) wholly agreed!! All this data you have shows public workers gettign paid more than the private sector is false anyways, so yes, bring the publng sector on par with the private!! I'm all for it!! Whats the going salary for a Master degreed worker in the private sector right now?
Just make sure to include benefits in the calculation. Pensions and lifetime healthcare are pretty rare in the private sector now.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:00 AM   #35
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Just make sure to include benefits in the calculation. Pensions and lifetime healthcare are pretty rare in the private sector now.
Pension? HAHAHHahahahahaa, who get those?
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #36
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Pension? HAHAHHahahahahaa, who get those?
at the local or regional level, pretty much nobody except perhaps schools cause they're still in MERS.

I know I don't/won't get one.

Oakland County did away with them in the spring of '94...
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #37
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Just make sure to include benefits in the calculation. Pensions and lifetime healthcare are pretty rare in the private sector now.
I am a public employee and have no pension. Not only that, but my employer has cut how much they match in my 401a account since I began working here. No matter how long I work here, I will never have lifetime healthcare either. If I retire from here, my healthcare ends when I walk out the door. All of the folks that I went to undergrad and graduate school with, who got jobs in state and local government around the same time as me, are in the same boat.

I also wouldn't consider my healthcare coverage to be anything to write home about either. When my wife was working (for a large public accounting firm and for a private utility before that) her health care was always significantly better than mine.

Oh, and what is this cost of living increase that people speak of? I haven't seen one of those since I was in the Marine Corps in the 1990s... I have had pay cuts each of the first four years I've been here and if it were not for an actual promotion earlier this year, I would now be making about quite a bit less than when I started here (especially if you factor in how much my health care premiums have increased and how much my employer stopped contributing to the aforementioned retirement account).

I'm all for having my pay matched to similar workers in the private sector. Folks in private commercial real estate offices and research firms who do what I do earn about double what I earn.

And regarding "sky rocketing" federal employment... The federal government has increased employment 2% over the past 10 years - hardly what I would call sky rocketing. The federal sector has also shed employment each quarter except one over the past 2 years.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #38
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I am a public employee and have no pension. Not only that, but my employer has cut how much they match in my 401a account since I began working here. No matter how long I work here, I will never have lifetime healthcare either. If I retire from here, my healthcare ends when I walk out the door. All of the folks that I went to undergrad and graduate school with, who got jobs in state and local government around the same time as me, are in the same boat.

I also wouldn't consider my healthcare coverage to be anything to write home about either. When my wife was working (for a large public accounting firm and for a private utility before that) her health care was always significantly better than mine.

Oh, and what is this cost of living increase that people speak of? I haven't seen one of those since I was in the Marine Corps in the 1990s... I have had pay cuts each of the first four years I've been here and if it were not for an actual promotion earlier this year, I would now be making about quite a bit less than when I started here (especially if you factor in how much my health care premiums have increased and how much my employer stopped contributing to the aforementioned retirement account).

I'm all for having my pay matched to similar workers in the private sector. Folks in private commercial real estate offices and research firms who do what I do earn about double what I earn.

And regarding "sky rocketing" federal employment... The federal government has increased employment 2% over the past 10 years - hardly what I would call sky rocketing. The federal sector has also shed employment each quarter except one over the past 2 years.
When I first started working in the private sector I also had great PPO, low out of pocket, low deductible insurance. About 8 years ago there was a huge push to move to a HMO, then a healhty HMO, and now I am on a high deductible health plan where the first 5k comes out my pocket. I don't bitch about any of it though, because it's better than a swift kick in the ass out the door.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #39
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When I first started working in the private sector I also had great PPO, low out of pocket, low deductible insurance. About 8 years ago there was a huge push to move to a HMO, then a healhty HMO, and now I am on a high deductible health plan where the first 5k comes out my pocket. I don't bitch about any of it though, because it's better than a swift kick in the ass out the door.
not to speak for wsu - but I for one didn't take his comment as bitching about it - but more correcting the misconception that public servants are on a gravy train. yes, indeed a job is better than sitting at home calling Marvin - but after a while anyone who is incorrectly associated with a few legacy employees gets tired of having a big fat target on their back...

Our current plan makes the insurance companies a lot of money (and their reps. I'm sure) but is essentially generic prescription coverage with a $20 co pay, $20 co pay on office visits and an annual deductible similar to yours for any procedures not covered in a primary care office.

Honestly, I'd rather they give me the annual premiums they pay for our family and we'd be ahead of the game buying catastrophic coverage + a prescription supplement through a family friend in the business.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:19 PM   #40
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When I first started working in the private sector I also had great PPO, low out of pocket, low deductible insurance. About 8 years ago there was a huge push to move to a HMO, then a healhty HMO, and now I am on a high deductible health plan where the first 5k comes out my pocket. I don't bitch about any of it though, because it's better than a swift kick in the ass out the door.
I'm not bitching about the situation, just pointing out that there have been sacrifices made in the public sector as well and that the benefits and pay scales of those who are currently working in the public sector are generally not nearly as fabulous as people like to paint them to be.
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