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Old July 20th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #1
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Default hrm, surprising source for this article on the "top 1%ers"

http://www.cnbc.com/id/48257611 The presidential election has given us two myths about the rich. First, that their incomes, and income inequality, are at all-time highs. Second, that the wealthy pay less in taxes than ever, and lower taxes than the rest of us. A recent report from the Congressional Budget Office, however, suggests that both may be false. Letís consider income first. Between 2007 and 2009, after-tax earnings by Americans in the top one percent for income fell 37 percent. On a pre-tax basis they fell 36 percent in the same period. Robert Frank Robert Frank CNBC Reporter & Editor That may sound like a minor haircut for One Percenters compared to people who lost their jobs. But when you take into account federal transfers, assistance and taxes paid, the incomes of the bottom 20 percent grew by 3 percent, while it fell a modest 2 percent for the middle 20 percent. In other words, the incomes of the top one percent fell 18 times more than the incomes for the middle class at the start of the recession. Change in after-income tax (2007-2009) The result of this big drop at the top was that their share of the country's total income also fell. In 2007, the top one percent earned 16.7 percent of all after-tax income. In 2009, that portion fell to 11.5 percent. Inequality, in other words, fell during those years. We are now in an age of High-Beta Wealth, where the incomes of the One Percent have become far more manic and prone to wild drops than the rest of the country. And taxes paid? Despite the oft-repeated fact that tax rates for the wealthy are at an all-time low (which is true), itís also true that the actual amount paid in taxes by the wealthy is higher than before the recession. Share of Income The One Percent paid an average effective tax rate of 28.9 percent on their income ó far more than any other group, and more than twice the average effective rate of the middle class, who paid 11 percent on average. So the rich lost more income and paid more of their money in taxes than the rest of the population. This is not an argument against taxing the wealthy. And the incomes and tax rates of the wealthy may have jumped back since 2009, with the rebound in financial markets. But when politicians and pundits talk about the rich just getting richer and paying less taxes, they need to pay closer attention to the actual numbers. -By CNBC's Robert Frank
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 11:48 AM   #2
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Yes, from 4 years ago to 2 years ago income inequality has dropped, and the taxes on the wealthy have gone up.

I wonder what the data from the past 2 years will show.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 03:37 PM   #3
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Data from years before when there were higher tax rates on the rich showed there was much less taxes paid into the system by the wealthy. Mainly because they are the ones that can afford to leave the country, or move their money out of the US to avoid taxes.

Keep raising the taxes of the people who make jobs and see how fast the economy falls as they leave for other countries with lower rates.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #4
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Yes, from 4 years ago to 2 years ago income inequality has dropped, and the taxes on the wealthy have gone up.

I wonder what the data from the past 2 years will show.
at the pace that the Federal Govt. ponders data, it'll be 2 or more years before we find out
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Old July 24th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #5
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Data from years before when there were higher tax rates on the rich showed there was much less taxes paid into the system by the wealthy. Mainly because they are the ones that can afford to leave the country, or move their money out of the US to avoid taxes.

Keep raising the taxes of the people who make jobs and see how fast the economy falls as they leave for other countries with lower rates.
Please post said data.
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Old July 24th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #6
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Please post said data.


This is my source.

There are a lot of other articles with similar data that I've seen. I'm sure someone can come up with a site that contradicts it though.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 07:37 AM   #7
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taxation is theft.

It does not matter how much you are stealing, or how rich/poor the person is who you have stolen from, it's still theft.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:02 AM   #8
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This is my source.

There are a lot of other articles with similar data that I've seen. I'm sure someone can come up with a site that contradicts it though.

Thanks.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #9
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taxation is theft.

It does not matter how much you are stealing, or how rich/poor the person is who you have stolen from, it's still theft.
How do you propose we pay for government?
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:54 AM   #10
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How do you propose we pay for government?
I propose that we don't.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #11
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I propose that we don't.
I donít think lawless anarchy with no national defense or boarder control is a good idea.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #12
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I donít think lawless anarchy with no national defense or boarder control is a good idea.
warring tribal nations where livestock and harem wives are traded sounds glorious to me.
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #13
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I propose that we don't.
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warring tribal nations where livestock and harem wives are traded sounds glorious to me.
Could be fun, but not exactly the stuff stable societies are made of.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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I don’t think lawless anarchy with no national defense or boarder control is a good idea.
Not what I had in mind. I was thinking more like pay to play.

The fire dept is a good example. The fire dept can be paid by the person who's house is on fire. You can pay them cash or have insurance, your choice. You could also have private fire dept.'s that you pay monthly to cover your home. That would encourage competition, which lowers cost. Otherwise put out the fire yourself or let it burn to the ground.

Court costs are paid by the parties in court. Basic laws of life, liberty, and property are enforced. Loser pays the court costs.

National defense : voluntary bonds. Just think how much less war there would be if you weren't forced to pay for it.

Border patrol is national defense.

Most necessary jobs the government does could and should be done by privately owned companies or individuals operating in a free market, one that encourages competition and lowers cost.

Here is the problem. In order to have an ordered and free society you need to have people with basic and self imposed moral standards. Mainly don't harm others and don't steal. People like that are rare in this country today which is why we have neither order nor freedom and won't anytime soon.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 12:47 PM   #15
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Not what I had in mind. I was thinking more like pay to play.

The fire dept is a good example. The fire dept can be paid by the person who's house is on fire. You can pay them cash or have insurance, your choice. You could also have private fire dept.'s that you pay monthly to cover your home. That would encourage competition, which lowers cost. Otherwise put out the fire yourself or let it burn to the ground.

Court costs are paid by the parties in court. Basic laws of life, liberty, and property are enforced. Loser pays the court costs.

National defense : voluntary bonds. Just think how much less war there would be if you weren't forced to pay for it.

Border patrol is national defense.

Most necessary jobs the government does could and should be done by privately owned companies or individuals operating in a free market, one that encourages competition and lowers cost.

Here is the problem. In order to have an ordered and free society you need to have people with basic and self imposed moral standards. Mainly don't harm others and don't steal. People like that are rare in this country today which is why we have neither order nor freedom and won't anytime soon.
So your proposing something that you admit wouldn't work?
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:19 PM   #16
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So your proposing something that you admit wouldn't work?
It would work but no one has the motivation to make it work until the morally corrupt system we currently have fails. And it will fail. Even then it's going to be ugly for a long time. Most people don't like change or effort. Maybe I'm being too doom-y / gloom-y today.
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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #17
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It would work but no one has the motivation to make it work until the morally corrupt system we currently have fails. And it will fail. Even then it's going to be ugly for a long time. Most people don't like change or effort. Maybe I'm being too doom-y / gloom-y today.
There are countless types of utopian societies that could be created if people could somehow be made to think and act differently. Unfortunately, weíre stuck with people that think and act like they will, not how we wish they did.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 10:26 AM   #18
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There are countless types of utopian societies that could be created if people could somehow be made to think and act differently. Unfortunately, weíre stuck with people that think and act like they will, not how we wish they did.
So you're saying we're screwed?
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Old July 27th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #19
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warring tribal nations where livestock and harem wives are traded sounds glorious to me.
I work with people who have gone back to their home counties and traded livestock for their wives.
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