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Old July 10th, 2012, 01:28 PM   #161
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not that I was included in the first meeting, but Springfield Inn?
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Old July 10th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #162
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bdd1469 for President! That is exactly what is wrong in this state. How many logging operations rape our public lands in the name of "healthy forest initiatives" and profits but yet we get a 10' wide swath of linear trail that has some ruts and we are labeled destroyers of the earth. It takes the NRA to fight for our guns, it will take state and federal organizations on our side to do the same for our public land.

UFWDA has a couple decals for sale, the "Public Land For Public Use" decal and the "Endangered Species" decal and clothing. You can also get these through GLFWDA as well as the "Support The Sport" decal.

Thank you to those showing interest in helping out and for the constructive conversation and ideas.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #163
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bdd1469 for President! That is exactly what is wrong in this state. How many logging operations rape our public lands in the name of "healthy forest initiatives" and profits but yet we get a 10' wide swath of linear trail that has some ruts and we are labeled destroyers of the earth. It takes the NRA to fight for our guns, it will take state and federal organizations on our side to do the same for our public land.

UFWDA has a couple decals for sale, the "Public Land For Public Use" decal and the "Endangered Species" decal and clothing. You can also get these through GLFWDA as well as the "Support The Sport" decal.

Thank you to those showing interest in helping out and for the constructive conversation and ideas.
Two words, Drummond Island.

It's kinda funny how once you get off the main roads you find deeply rutted roads from the logging equipment and large swaths of land that looks like its been pulled from the Lorax.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #164
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..........as liv2mx stated, take a ride over by Whiskey Creek in his neck of the woods. (or lack there of now) I was horrified the last time I was up there. The logging industry did nothing shy of rape and pilageing to the land.

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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:00 PM   #165
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..........as liv2mx stated, take a ride over by Whiskey Creek in his neck of the woods. (or lack there of now) I was horrified the last time I was up there. The logging industry did nothing shy of rape and pilageing to the land.
Is anyone getting pics? I would love to have accumulated "before and after" pics of what has changed in our state. Let a guy make a rut on a hill and he is evil. Let a dozer level it flat to build a gas station and it is progress.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #166
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Yankee Springs too. 50+ acre parcels of nothing but stumps now, but don't use that 4wd shift lever.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #167
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Is anyone getting pics? I would love to have accumulated "before and after" pics of what has changed in our state. Let a guy make a rut on a hill and he is evil. Let a dozer level it flat to build a gas station and it is progress.
Unfortunately, I didn't at the time. However, I will be back up there in September and October. I will be taking video and pictures. If nothing else, just to post on youtube so more people can see it.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #168
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Is anyone getting pics? I would love to have accumulated "before and after" pics of what has changed in our state. Let a guy make a rut on a hill and he is evil. Let a dozer level it flat to build a gas station and it is progress.
The government only cares about the almighty dollar. They get paid to fillin a wet land and put up a sub division or gas station etc. So its simple to put out their dirty hand and turn their two faced head and look the other way.
What do they get out of some wheelers?

I dont see whay they cant look at the perfectly painted picture and see that Silver lake is packed to the max every weekend as is the mounds. Both very profitable sucessful parks. You would think they would look at that and realize we need bigger better parks for ORV. Maybe we should, and maybe you guys have already tried but why not push to get more ORV state and county parks?

Personally I think if we had a state or county park that had some DNR supported fishing lakes a camp ground and surronded by good wheeling trails and obsticals it could and would be a huge success!

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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #169
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The government only cares about the almighty dollar. They get paid to fillin a wet land and put up a sub division or gas station etc. So its simple to put out their dirty hand and turn their two faced head and look the other way.
What do they get out of some wheelers?

I dont see whay they cant look at the perfectly painted picture and see that Silver lake is packed to the max every weekend as is the mounds. Both very profitable sucessful parks. You would think they would look at that and realize we need bigger better parks for ORV. Maybe we should, and maybe you guys have already tried but why not push to get more ORV state and county parks?

Personally I think if we had a state or county park that had some DNR supported fishing lakes a camp ground and surronded by good wheeling trails and obsticals it could and would be a huge success!

That's a great idea, but...

If the decade or so battle that they fought just to get some rocks brought into the Mounds is any indication of how slow the government moves, even when it is in your favor, we may all be dead by the time an idea like that comes to fruition.

That's my problem with being involved. The government works way too slow, way too "one step forward, two steps back", way too indecisive, way too wishy washy, etc... I'm not an overly positive or patient person and I know that I would be easily and quickly frustrated and discouraged dealing with that stuff.

That's what I like about the private parks. At least there is a motivating factor of either personal enjoyment or the idea of making a buck driving development. With the government you deal with whoever's agenda it is this week or whoever has had their ear right after you.

If anything Great Lakes needs to find patient, mature people that are willing to beat heads on walls for years on end just to make a slight victory. Not young blooded people that will burn out quickly.

I'm sorry I'm such a Debbie Downer on this one because I do think its a good fight. I just think for me this is one of those areas that I'm better off putting the membership fee towards and letting a better man than me fight the war.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #170
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That's a great idea, but...

If the decade or so battle that they fought just to get some rocks brought into the Mounds is any indication of how slow the government moves, even when it is in your favor, we may all be dead by the time an idea like that comes to fruition.

That's my problem with being involved. The government works way too slow, way too "one step forward, two steps back", way too indecisive, way too wishy washy, etc... I'm not an overly positive or patient person and I know that I would be easily and quickly frustrated and discouraged dealing with that stuff.

That's what I like about the private parks. At least there is a motivating factor of either personal enjoyment or the idea of making a buck driving development. With the government you deal with whoever's agenda it is this week or whoever has had their ear right after you.

If anything Great Lakes needs to find patient, mature people that are willing to beat heads on walls for years on end just to make a slight victory. Not young blooded people that will burn out quickly.

I'm sorry I'm such a Debbie Downer on this one because I do think its a good fight. I just think for me this is one of those areas that I'm better off putting the membership fee towards and letting a better man than me fight the war.
Jim Mazzola and I are both way older than you are and we still see the benefit. I don't know how you compare to Pat Kinne. But......... if the 3 of us, who are all older than you had this attitude, you would not have any rocks at St. Helen or the Mounds. And....... although you guys always call us old, we are able to wheel those rocks. So, think of the potential you could have if you would only use the "glass half full" attitude.

Granted, it has taken years to get some of the stuff, but look at what happened in the past few years. The users "us" were invited to attend the planning meetings at Drummond, St Helen and the Mounds. Speaking for myself, they actually shifted the meetings around to meet my schedule at the Mounds. Originally there were not any rocks planned for the woods. That was my input. Originally there was no slab. That was my input thanks to the guys at TT. The pipe course was Jim Mazzola's idea. All of this stuff was because they LISTENED TO US. So many people say they won't listen. Well, I'm here to tell you that they DID. In fact, they called me to ask me to bring my jeep out so that I could try the course and they could see what they needed to change.

Have you driven the new connector route that WLB cut in West Branch? They were given free reign to cut a new connector trail and it is a fun, tight and twisty trail.

We can do more folks. We just need to keep working at it.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #171
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Wow, Long read....
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Old July 10th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #172
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To continue what Jim has expressed, it is getting easier and easier after every meeting and project that we accomplish as an organization. Meaning that the ground work to better relationships and a better understanding from the Dept of Natural Resources of what we would like to see with our sport and our land has been laid, what we need now is good folks to keep the ball rolling. Age is of no importance when it comes to something that people of the same mind-set have as a common goal, the goal of public land for public use.....and if you build it they will come.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #173
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Jim Mazzola and I are both way older than you are and we still see the benefit. I don't know how you compare to Pat Kinne. But......... if the 3 of us, who are all older than you had this attitude, you would not have any rocks at St. Helen or the Mounds. And....... although you guys always call us old, we are able to wheel those rocks. So, think of the potential you could have if you would only use the "glass half full" attitude.

Granted, it has taken years to get some of the stuff, but look at what happened in the past few years. The users "us" were invited to attend the planning meetings at Drummond, St Helen and the Mounds. Speaking for myself, they actually shifted the meetings around to meet my schedule at the Mounds. Originally there were not any rocks planned for the woods. That was my input. Originally there was no slab. That was my input thanks to the guys at TT. The pipe course was Jim Mazzola's idea. All of this stuff was because they LISTENED TO US. So many people say they won't listen. Well, I'm here to tell you that they DID. In fact, they called me to ask me to bring my jeep out so that I could try the course and they could see what they needed to change.

Have you driven the new connector route that WLB cut in West Branch? They were given free reign to cut a new connector trail and it is a fun, tight and twisty trail.

We can do more folks. We just need to keep working at it.
Good piont.. I know alot of that stuff has taken time but there has been alot of progress made in the last couple of years! its jsut to bad they wont give full raines on the mounds project but it is what it is. You guys have done a lot of good for this state. Thats why Pats my idol you not so much...lol
I would like to jion the fight and try to get another state or county park to open I think it would be win win for both parties.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #174
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Jim Mazzola and I are both way older than you are and we still see the benefit. I don't know how you compare to Pat Kinne. But......... if the 3 of us, who are all older than you had this attitude, you would not have any rocks at St. Helen or the Mounds. And....... although you guys always call us old, we are able to wheel those rocks. So, think of the potential you could have if you would only use the "glass half full" attitude.

Granted, it has taken years to get some of the stuff, but look at what happened in the past few years. The users "us" were invited to attend the planning meetings at Drummond, St Helen and the Mounds. Speaking for myself, they actually shifted the meetings around to meet my schedule at the Mounds. Originally there were not any rocks planned for the woods. That was my input. Originally there was no slab. That was my input thanks to the guys at TT. The pipe course was Jim Mazzola's idea. All of this stuff was because they LISTENED TO US. So many people say they won't listen. Well, I'm here to tell you that they DID. In fact, they called me to ask me to bring my jeep out so that I could try the course and they could see what they needed to change.

Have you driven the new connector route that WLB cut in West Branch? They were given free reign to cut a new connector trail and it is a fun, tight and twisty trail.

We can do more folks. We just need to keep working at it.
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To continue what Jim has expressed, it is getting easier and easier after every meeting and project that we accomplish as an organization. Meaning that the ground work to better relationships and a better understanding from the Dept of Natural Resources of what we would like to see with our sport and our land has been laid, what we need now is good folks to keep the ball rolling. Age is of no importance when it comes to something that people of the same mind-set have as a common goal, the goal of public land for public use.....and if you build it they will come.
You old timers have very good points.

I guess maybe I am looking at it as a glass half empty instead of the way you do. Maybe the seemingly insurmountable challenge was to get the ball rolling and now that it is rolling it just needs to be kept moving.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #175
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Good piont.. I know alot of that stuff has taken time but there has been alot of progress made in the last couple of years! its jsut to bad they wont give full raines on the mounds project but it is what it is. You guys have done a lot of good for this state. Thats why Pats my idol
you not so much...lol
I would like to jion the fight and try to get another state or county park to open I think it would be win win for both parties.
RE this Years ago the state committed to another ORV Scramble area in SE Michigan. After much pushing, it has still not come about. Maybe that can be your personal challenge,......... to talk to others and come up to speed as to the current status and take the ball from there.

So many people ask what they can do. In reality, each person needs to get some interaction with the rest of the group and whittle out that little piece of the puzzle that works for you. I can't ask you to go make a speech if you are not comfortable making speeches. I can't ask you to be our membership secretary if you are not comfortable with a database. I can't ask you to attend an evening meeting if you work nights. It has to work for you. Look at Drummond Island. Steve Walker lives there and it's his passion. So, he was deeply involved in the development there. But to ask him to work on a project in SE Michigan is silly.

That's why it is hard to just say "do this".
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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #176
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RE this Years ago the state committed to another ORV Scramble area in SE Michigan. After much pushing, it has still not come about. Maybe that can be your personal challenge,......... to talk to others and come up to speed as to the current status and take the ball from there.

So many people ask what they can do. In reality, each person needs to get some interaction with the rest of the group and whittle out that little piece of the puzzle that works for you. I can't ask you to go make a speech if you are not comfortable making speeches. I can't ask you to be our membership secretary if you are not comfortable with a database. I can't ask you to attend an evening meeting if you work nights. It has to work for you. Look at Drummond Island. Steve Walker lives there and it's his passion. So, he was deeply involved in the development there. But to ask him to work on a project in SE Michigan is silly.

That's why it is hard to just say "do this".
I talked to Pat about this and I am very interesetd in trying to make this happen. he filled me in that in the original bylaws they slated a SE scramble area. THis would be a perfect location as it is close enough to the boarder to bring in out of staters as well. I am not good at speeches, im not the brightest tool in the bunch. everyone that knows me knows I suck at spellign and grammer (but im gettign better...lol) But I would love to se a park in SE michigan and I will participate in making that happen. I have no idea of how most politicle things work and making these connections. However I am a people person I work with people everyday.
If you older, wiser folks are willing to help get that giong I would be very passionate about it. Much more passionate than the trail stuff (which is still very improtant to me) I just really think a park in SE michigan would be huge for the four wheeling community and the state revinue aswell

And your still high on my list Jim, but Pat friended me on FB you still ignore my request...haha

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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #177
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If anything Great Lakes needs to find patient, mature people that are willing to beat heads on walls for years on end just to make a slight victory. Not young blooded people that will burn out quickly.
Personally I find that a couple days in the woods and a cold beer around the campfire fixes that flat spot on my head when it starts to develop.

It's often a long, frustrating process. And that's after only having been involved personally with GLFWDA since 2006. Some of the "old guys" have been doing this for decades.

But it has its rewards too. The SoFO trail Jim mentioned (he called it the WLB trail) was like getting a treat for doing good in school. It was a long day of work but we got to make a trail as tight as the rule book would allow.

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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #178
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Alright, I'm caught up. Happy to see this thread going in a more positive direction.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #179
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And I want to say thank you to all of the people who sent e-mails and pm's offering to help. I think I got all of them returned, but if I missed you poke me again. If I didn't throw out an idea that appeals to you, don't sweat it. We have new projects that pop up, seasonal projects etc, and now that I know how to find you and who you are I'll keep you in the loop.

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Old July 10th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #180
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And your still high on my list Jim, but Pat friended me on FB you still ignore my request...haha
What is FB?
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