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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #101
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Yeah. I mean I see the point, I'm positive another wheeler came through and created the hole, but how do you get through it to get to the highlands without spinning your tires a little bit? And then impound because of it...I would have understood if I was told I was the unlucky soul that helped them make a statement but a ticket would have sufficed.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #102
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Opie,
There have been several attempts at making the quarterly meetings more palatable to all. Years ago they were all held in Midland on a Sunday because it was sort of central to the state. (LP) People didn't like wasting their Sunday and complained that there were never any meetings near their home. So, we tried moving the meetings around. Same problem. So, we started having them coincide with events because it seemed many people would come to them. I think the turnout has been marginal. As an example, out of 70 or so registered rigs for Snofari, I bet there were less than 25 people that attended the meeting. So, we have not found the perfect mix.

I also think the opinion is that all GLFWDA members think that if your rig is not built, there is nothing for you. That is really far from the truth. And the interesting thing is that our VP, Paul Hittie rolls his rig on 31's and it's his daily driver. With that, he is a trail leader every year for Snofari. Interesting eh?

Yotabuilt,
Simply stated, as the laws currently stand, it sounds like you probably deserved your ticket. Whether I agree with it or not, our "current" state laws say that you can't operate on state land unless it is passable by a conventional 2wd vehicle unless it is an ORV route or a scramble area. So, if you were slogging through 2 ft of mud, well........ any way you shake it, this has been outlawed for years.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #103
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It's understandable but there was no ticket...just impounded it and let me get it back out the next day...which might have been better deal but I would have rather drove it home. Regardless I wouldnt mind helping where I can...even if it's just a simple vote or anything...i don't think I have the pull of a leader but I'll stand behind for support.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #104
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It's understandable but there was no ticket...just impounded it and let me get it back out the next day...which might have been better deal but I would have rather drove it home. Regardless I wouldnt mind helping where I can...even if it's just a simple vote or anything...i don't think I have the pull of a leader but I'll stand behind for support.
The tow was the better deal. A ticket would have been a misdemeanor and a court appearance.

Your situation was a prime example of why people need to be involved though. You had no intent to do harm. You were having some fun in the woods and a section of trail was muddy. This VERY common, but per the laws it's illegal. Referred to as the two wheel drive rule to simplify it. Currently, to my knowledge, only Drummond has legal trails that allow the mud holes to take natures course. So what is one to do? Legally need to stay on the trail, so going around isn't an option. Going through isn't an option either so turning around is all thats left. I don't want to see the state trails turned into bottomless pits but having nothing but dirt roads is no fun either.

I've been trying to work with Phittie on getting the ORV route expanded around West Branch. I've submitted maps but it's all in limbo, and has been for over a year. Generally though, routes have a bit more leeway to erosion issues as they are designated for the purpose of wheeling, vs a forest road which is nothing more than an unmaintained dirt road. Drummond is a good example for the DNR if they can grasp that offroaders want a challenge. Maybe we could eventually get routes designated across the state with would be fun and entertaining for all. I think the hardcore stuff can stay in the parks, but that doesn't mean there can't be a challenge on state land too. Currently, anything that we have that is even a minor challenge they work to shut down. West Branch is a prime example as a few great hills were blocked off two years ago and Pin Ball was shut down this past year.

Sorry, another rant...
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:49 PM   #105
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I do? Well, fuck me sideways put me in charge!

Only answer I've given is to try and join forces with other groups like duffman outlined so perfectly, and to quit turning help away like has been done for too long, and suggested a lot of people aren't as into trailriding and they may not be as interested as guys like you and mr. Mazolla and computer user and that's why you may not have the number of volunteers you're looking for. But if those are all bad ideas then forgive me for trying to brainstorm and make some suggestions.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #106
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Opie,
There have been several attempts at making the quarterly meetings more palatable to all. Years ago they were all held in Midland on a Sunday because it was sort of central to the state. (LP) People didn't like wasting their Sunday and complained that there were never any meetings near their home. So, we tried moving the meetings around. Same problem. So, we started having them coincide with events because it seemed many people would come to them. I think the turnout has been marginal. As an example, out of 70 or so registered rigs for Snofari, I bet there were less than 25 people that attended the meeting. So, we have not found the perfect mix.
Please do not misunderstand my post. I realize that no one situation will work for everyone so emphasis is placed on trying to find something to fit a majority. I realize this. MI is a big state, and getting everyone together at one time and in one place is a hell of a challenge.

Not sure what the best option is... Maybe turn to a more digital approach to the meetings where one can log in their attendance simply by watching a video of the meeting. Digital votes etc....

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I also think the opinion is that all GLFWDA members think that if your rig is not built, there is nothing for you. That is really far from the truth. And the interesting thing is that our VP, Paul Hittie rolls his rig on 31's and it's his daily driver. With that, he is a trail leader every year for Snofari. Interesting eh?
I did not mean GLFWDA, I was speaking more of the individual clubs. I met Paul at one of the Two Trackers clean ups... Doing Sno Fari on 31's does not sound like fun to me!!! But again, its all about perspective and how one defines "wheeling."

Also... And I think I can speak for computeruser and sum up his stance a little better.. Some people are not of the herd mentality. We do not fit into the club scene and prefer to take a more active role in situations. At times this mean bypassing the club and going right to the top. I know computeruser has done this in the past and gotten less than desirable results. Me, Id love to volunteer more. Lots more, but my reality is a family of 4 living on a single income. Free time is devoted to the kids. (mostly)

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Old July 8th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #107
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Yeah. I mean I see the point, I'm positive another wheeler came through and created the hole, but how do you get through it to get to the highlands without spinning your tires a little bit? And then impound because of it...I would have understood if I was told I was the unlucky soul that helped them make a statement but a ticket would have sufficed.
Perhaps come back when the hole is dry? I know the sour feeling of having to turn around and not reach your destination, but sometimes it is the best option. Given the eggshells the outdoor 4x4 community has to walk on, we all need to keep this in mind before we dip our tires in the hole.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #108
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Opie,
There have been several attempts at making the quarterly meetings more palatable to all. Years ago they were all held in Midland on a Sunday because it was sort of central to the state. (LP) People didn't like wasting their Sunday and complained that there were never any meetings near their home. So, we tried moving the meetings around. Same problem. So, we started having them coincide with events because it seemed many people would come to them. I think the turnout has been marginal. As an example, out of 70 or so registered rigs for Snofari, I bet there were less than 25 people that attended the meeting. So, we have not found the perfect mix.

I also think the opinion is that all GLFWDA members think that if your rig is not built, there is nothing for you. That is really far from the truth. And the interesting thing is that our VP, Paul Hittie rolls his rig on 31's and it's his daily driver. With that, he is a trail leader every year for Snofari. Interesting eh?

Yotabuilt,
Simply stated, as the laws currently stand, it sounds like you probably deserved your ticket. Whether I agree with it or not, our "current" state laws say that you can't operate on state land unless it is passable by a conventional 2wd vehicle unless it is an ORV route or a scramble area. So, if you were slogging through 2 ft of mud, well........ any way you shake it, this has been outlawed for years.
I think you guys have done an awesome job with all of the changes made
I am willing to help but unfortunately until my job becomes less hectic there is only so much I can do. If you need letters or emails written you just let me know. I will make Mike write one too.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #109
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If glfwda wants to increase their user reach and ability to keep land open they need to stop alienating potential members, user groups, racers, etc. They need to join forces with the orv's, the atv's, the sxs, the dune buggy guys, etc.
you cant merge the groups. i suggested it too when i was vp.
all the groups have very different agendas/needs. when we are the smallest and poorest group, our agenda would be ignored.

we would die to merge with msa. they have money and power falling out their ass. the problem is they dont want us to be able to use any of "their" trials.

so msa is out, and there is all the money and power.

the atv community has some money, and lots of users, but very poorly organized!
mabey we could join with them?
they want all the trails bladed flat so they can go fast.(much like the snowmobile crowd). we cant run the 50" trails anyway, and they like it like that.

it would be nice to merge all the groups.
how would we like it when our donations went to blade flat 50" atv trails?
how would we like it when our donations went to close access to full size users to the snowmobile trail system?
how would you like when our donations went to brush new 24" mcct trails?
how would they like it when their donations went to put a rock course at the mounds?

the wants and needs of every group clash much of the time! its really sad, but usually true!

the board needs to find where our "agendas" dont clash, and form a bond on that single issue with other user groups!
if possible it could become and annual event to joint together over that issue.
its very hard to find issues that multiple users groups can stand behind and not piss off their membership.

sadly it wont work! great idea, we need more ideas like that! bring more and help our association.
"there are no bad ideas" lord knows i had a few off the wall ideas.
in a board meeting, all ideas are welcomed!

i had the same idea you just had!

i met with the old vp of msa, don reed. darn nice guy! he is now the president of msa. i went riding last season, with the current vp of msa.
another darn nice guy. unfortunately they dont think much of the full size user on "their" trails.
when i spoke with them about working with glfwda, they were not against it.
it has to fit their agenda though. very few times will our "agendas" be able to work together.

it would be nice to merge all the groups.
its almost impossible most of the time.

You are absolutely correct! we can not afford to alienate even one member or user group! every person counts!

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Old July 8th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #110
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Old July 8th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #111
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Perfect example of blocking off trails, we use to be allowed to climb the hills here wit zero problems as the snowmobilers destroyed the area anyway, and the Dnr used to tell us hills and sand 100% go ahead...now they spend a few grand on boulders and it's 100% no go...it's the people that can climb over the boulders that are making it worse for us to go out and enjoy a good camp fire and cruise.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #112
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the thing that pisses me off the most, is almost all our board has left the glfwda board to work with ufwda!
i guess glfwda aint so important after all??

how about some other state association donates a few board members?

how many other state associations 100% support ufwda?

glfwda has given way too much to ufwda already!
glfwda must not need any more support if we give all of ours away?

currently i would vote for glfwda to drop 100% support of ufwda!
lets spend that money instate!

i support glfwda, the board was a good bunch of guys doing everything they could.
too bad they all are leaving for ufwda.

my saddest day was when mark was forced out of office! i really wanted to cry!
the best part was bob took over! he is a great guy! he would do anything for glfwda!
now we wont have either one!

best of luck to paul, pat, and pam! i would proudly nominate any one of you for president!
after that i would be the first to ask for an up or down vote on 100% support of ufwda.
i think the vote would be close, last time it was.
i doubt they do so well this time!


jmho

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Old July 8th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #113
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This is a big read. I am going through post by post here and educating myself. I decided to jump to the end after page 2 to simply reply and show my support. I am 22 and pretty new to the scene. havent been to any meets here because theyre usually far away and I cant afford the time off. I have been to several local meets with N2Deep.

Like I said Im going post by post here. but Id like to let you know Im interested in helping out. I love this sport and hope to get much further into it.
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Old July 9th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #114
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As someone who likes two-tracks, dispersed camping on state land, and things of that sort, I'd be interested in playing a bigger role in the advocacy side of things. Parks don't interest me and never will, and the loss of trail mileage and the (real or perceived) law enforcement harassment in the lower peninsula is a big part of what keeps me on the tarmac and out of the woods.

Past contacts that I have made with GLFWDA leadership and past attempts to become involved with trail clean-up and other activities have not produced very positive interactions. I certainly have not received the sort of responses that left me feeling like GLFWDA wanted me to contribute my time and energy and opinions. So I send my $40 or whatever dues are these days, and call it good. But I could do more.

I think that GLFWDA needs to understand that there are A LOT of us who want to be involved, and who have the time and energy and desire to contribute to maintaining full-size vehicle access on state lands. But because we don't want to join off-road clubs, or attend meetings held at bars, or be part of a certain clique, or things of that sort, we're left out of the mix.

If GLFWDA is open to new blood and new ideas, if sharing information with newer folks to help them grow into a productive role within the group is something one can reasonably expect, then I'm game to give greater involvement with GLFWDA a shot. But if I'm just going to be told again to join a local club and interface with GLFWDA through that club...

GLFWDA has no clue has much of an asset you would be to them. I fear they may never know either which is sad as hell. I think you may be able to accomplish amazing things at the healm of the ship.
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Old July 9th, 2012, 04:16 AM   #115
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Please do not misunderstand my post. I realize that no one situation will work for everyone so emphasis is placed on trying to find something to fit a majority. I realize this. MI is a big state, and getting everyone together at one time and in one place is a hell of a challenge.

Not sure what the best option is... Maybe turn to a more digital approach to the meetings where one can log in their attendance simply by watching a video of the meeting. Digital votes etc....



I did not mean GLFWDA, I was speaking more of the individual clubs. I met Paul at one of the Two Trackers clean ups... Doing Sno Fari on 31's does not sound like fun to me!!! But again, its all about perspective and how one defines "wheeling."

Also... And I think I can speak for computeruser and sum up his stance a little better.. Some people are not of the herd mentality. We do not fit into the club scene and prefer to take a more active role in situations. At times this mean bypassing the club and going right to the top. I know computeruser has done this in the past and gotten less than desirable results. Me, Id love to volunteer more. Lots more, but my reality is a family of 4 living on a single income. Free time is devoted to the kids. (mostly)
This too has changed. In years past GLFWDA was a "club" based organization and individual members (which I have always been) were encouraged to join a club. From that standpoint, I've always been more of a loaner. Around 2004 or so, there was a major change. It stemmed from the fact that people felt that the internet was reducing the need for meetings, you could find almost anything you needed to know on line. (short of what we all know is gained by facial expressions). And, the old format was that only clubs had votes, not the individual members. So, with the growing number of individual members and the club count dropping, the push was to go to individual membership. The tipping point was when we had a quarterly meeting and there were not enough clubs in attendance to form a quorum. Long story short, club counts were eliminated and everyone gets a vote. You as a person who likes flat 2 tracks gets the exact same vote as the guy who wants sand or mud or rocks.

Oh, and Joe, it was not the president of UFWDA that started this thread.

Re the comments about internet viewing, voting, etc. This is also something that has been discussed but posed problems with the bylaws, etc. Plus, it eliminated the ability for anyone without internet to be active. (yeah, possibly a sign of the old folks being skittish) On top of that, it would take a volunteer to set it up, which is a perfect example of what a new person may be able to bring to the table.
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Old July 9th, 2012, 08:01 AM   #116
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Holy cow...I leave you guys on your own for a couple of days and discovered about 9 pages of posts to catch up on!

I am not going to be able to get through all of this until lunch time, just wanted you know I wasn't ignoring this but I have this nagging J O B thing thing this morning....
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Old July 9th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #117
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I also think the opinion is that all GLFWDA members think that if your rig is not built, there is nothing for you. That is really far from the truth. And the interesting thing is that our VP, Paul Hittie rolls his rig on 31's and it's his daily driver. With that, he is a trail leader every year for Snofari. Interesting eh?
OMG they are 33s OK? They are skinny, they are ATs, but the are 33s! They do in fact see 16,000-18,000 miles on the road each year, but they also enjoy 2-3 weekends in Atlanta, 3-4 weekends in St Helen, 2-3 weekends at SIlver Lake, at least one on Drummond Island, one in Canada, and I try to get out of state once a year to hit a park - Badlands, Hapsin Acres...

OK still only up to Page 10 because my lunch hour is never 100% lunch, more like 40% work and 60% lunch but still working on it. Until I get a chance to read it all, I saw a lot of comments about moving to the digital age of meetings. Tim S. and others up in 'da UP have been after us for years to incorporate some type of digital attendance for the quarterly meetings, there are some voting issues etc to be worked out, but we are already a step ahead of the conversation (or not as many steps behind as some would think):

http://www.facebook.com/#!/events/386344981428583/

For those of you that don't do Facebook, the next GLFWDA quarterly meeting will be held via GoToMeeting. Summer has been our worst attended meeting for years, even to the point of considering skipping it. The other thing that is different this time around is the scheduling - a Tuesday evening at 8pm. If you are unable to access the invitation through Facebook, send me an e-mail vicepresident@glfwda.org Keep in mind this is a first attempt and may be a bit rough, but Bob has been moderating these types of meetings for the UFWDA BoD, GLFWDA BoD and UFWDA Delegates calls for a while now.

***edit - you do not need Internet access to attend, you can attend in listen-only mode from your phone after you are registered. However, if you know someone that has no access to e-mail but would like to attend they better call me so we can get them registered, not sure how that part works until I ask.
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Old July 9th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #118
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Remind me in january, if I end up with a job in this state I'd be more than happy to take a position, our at least start volunteering.

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Old July 9th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #119
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Let me start off by thanking Jim M and Jim K for all you have done. Your hard work and endless dedication has been great for the off road community.

I do agree with Chad on this subject as I was snubbed in many ways when trying to get deeply involved. Jim M we have talked in great lakes in the past. I was an avid 4wd promoter both on and off the trails. I also was a but reckless at times, but who hasn't been. In the mid to late 90's early 2000 I was big into the sport.

Heck then the termoil between the swamp stompers and gl4x4 caused me not to care Hell I still don't know what happend and who's pants were in a bunch. I remember my last quarterly meeting trying to talk to people and because I was a member of SS they turned their backs and walked away. I said F it it wasn't worth my time to be treated as such when I tried to get all groups of GLFWDA together.

It will take a few go getters that have the drive to get the respect of the old and turn their ways into new ideas. And then pray the old gov officials will allow the younger ideas to become real and not just stupid ideas.

All in all I would hate to see the trails shut down up there as it is beautiful in woods.
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Old July 9th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #120
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Oh, and Joe, it was not the president of UFWDA that started this thread.

sorry jim, i stand corrected.
post corrected.

Last edited by joe_jeep; July 9th, 2012 at 08:02 PM.
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