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Old July 8th, 2012, 01:47 PM   #81
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Give it a rest? How about as an organization open your fucking eyes and realize im trying to help? You STILL have people who feel treated this way. Computeruser just posted saying he was recently treated this way.

Me personally im well over it, but your organization and even your attitude shows you guys aren't passed it and won't be for the foreseeable future.
personally I think computeruser is full of shit...I suspect that he thought because he feels like he is awesome the he should be given an important task without anyone knowing who he is. I believe he saw your post about mistreatment and then jumped on the band wagon. If I have my info right, he asks about how he can help, he was told to attend a meeting, he cried because he is above going to meetings because he doesn’t have time…I wonder how much time he has for anything? And BTW just from reading your posts, its sounds like you are part to blame for whatever happened
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Old July 8th, 2012, 01:53 PM   #82
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personally I think computeruser is full of shit...I suspect that he thought because he feels like he is awesome the he should be given an important task without anyone knowing who he is. I believe he saw your post about mistreatment and then jumped on the band wagon. If I have my info right, he asks about how he can help, he was told to attend a meeting, he cried because he is above going to meetings because he doesn’t have time…I wonder how much time he has for anything? And BTW just from reading your posts, its sounds like you are part to blame for whatever happened
You guessed wrong, but feel free to try again. And if you want to up your odds, reread what I wrote, because you clearly missed the substance of it on your first go-around.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #83
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As someone who likes two-tracks, dispersed camping on state land, and things of that sort, I'd be interested in playing a bigger role in the advocacy side of things. Parks don't interest me and never will, and the loss of trail mileage and the (real or perceived) law enforcement harassment in the lower peninsula is a big part of what keeps me on the tarmac and out of the woods.

Past contacts that I have made with GLFWDA leadership and past attempts to become involved with trail clean-up and other activities have not produced very positive interactions. I certainly have not received the sort of responses that left me feeling like GLFWDA wanted me to contribute my time and energy and opinions. So I send my $40 or whatever dues are these days, and call it good. But I could do more.

I think that GLFWDA needs to understand that there are A LOT of us who want to be involved, and who have the time and energy and desire to contribute to maintaining full-size vehicle access on state lands. But because we don't want to join off-road clubs, or attend meetings held at bars, or be part of a certain clique, or things of that sort, we're left out of the mix.

If GLFWDA is open to new blood and new ideas, if sharing information with newer folks to help them grow into a productive role within the group is something one can reasonably expect, then I'm game to give greater involvement with GLFWDA a shot. But if I'm just going to be told again to join a local club and interface with GLFWDA through that club...
I can appreciate the lack of desire to travel hours on end to attend meetings as it gets expensive however.....GL also sees that as a detriment. Your a 4wheeler and you want to wheel, right? Hence for the last few years GL has alligned their meetings with one of the popular events for that quarter. SnoFari in January, Two Tracker Spring clean up and Silver lake during the summer and DOA or Trolls Fall color tour in the fall.
No ones trying to shun anyone. The GL board needs to who you are and what talents you have so they can best utilize them. Sometimes sending them a PM or e-mail will get the ball rolling. Expecting to get a real answer here can be a bit of a chore and a 'weeding' activity to seperate the 'knows' and the 'know-nots'.
Oz does have a point though in the fact putting a face to a name goes a long way towards knowing who you are and who we are.
If your not able then let them know and they will figure out a place when you can put your talents to work.

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Old July 8th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #84
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Give it a rest? How about as an organization open your fucking eyes and realize im trying to help? You STILL have people who feel treated this way. Computeruser just posted saying he was recently treated this way.

Me personally im well over it, but your organization and even your attitude shows you guys aren't passed it and won't be for the foreseeable future.
There are times you're an all right guy, but there are other times you are such a fucking cry baby. This is one of those times.

You are bitching about something that happened a long time ago. Computeruser wants to help, but wants it to be handed to him as if it's that easy(computeruser, that sounds bad but I don't mean it that way. read on.) My attitude doesn't show shit as I'm not really any part of GLFWDA at this point. There is a process to helping with pretty much anything. Considering the things that are being done, they aren't the "do this" type of jobs that can just be doled out.

As for you, how the hell are you trying to help? You go on and on about something that happened 10 years ago, and have stated in this thread that you don't care, yet you go out of your way to complain about it just like you do most things. If you want to help, shut the fukc up and help instead of being a whiner about the past.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #85
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The younger generation probably doesn't give a shit because of the cold shoulder they got years ago from the older generation.
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Yeah, I should let of go......bullshit. I WANTED to help, I WANTED to be involved, I joined clubs, j started clubs, I TRIED, to be the young generation. We got snubbed. It's no surprise we've all moved on.
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No, it didn't involve you, top my knowledge. I don't recall meeting you until years later.

Regardless, I can think of a good handful of people who at one time or another were snubbed by the glfwda, outside of the 2 different clubs (one i started, another I was a member of) who tried to get involved. Both became meber clubs.

The point is, tonight you are suggesting the younger generation get involved. I for one, wanted to get involved, was willing to get involved, travled hundreds of miles to get involved, and was snubbed, not just once.......that was ten years ago, I don't care to get involved anymore....and like i said there are others i know who feel the same, who off road, race, compete, trail ride, etc.

It's not personal against you at all, but now that half of us are burned out or annoyed, why would we get involved now?
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I think another factor comes down to the type of wheeling people are doing.

Michigan doesn't have the terrain to support a Tellico, Black Hills, Moab, Windrock, etc. Michigan has sandy two tracks and mud, this is why so many private parks have opened up with man made obstacles/trails. We didn't have that option 10 years ago, we had public land, the dunes, and the mounds. We took trips to the UP, we took trips to Canada, and we took trips out of state because we didn't have options so WE HAD To work with GLFWDA.

I'll say it again, there was a generation of us people like myself, chevotass, trailrail, hosejockey, alumcj, etc. that COULD be very active in GLFWDA, and most of those guys still wheel in one fashion or another (i'd be the exception who really doesn't). There's also a big group outside of that who don't get online, all of us were involved with clubs and became members of glfwda, and most (I won't put words in others mouths) were snubbed, so the glfwda missed out. It was like the old guard didn't want a bunch of 20 somethings who still wanted to act a little silly at the campfire and drink a few beers around to tarnish "their" sport. Now, those guys wheel private parks, they don't go 2 tracking all that often, and guys like Hoser, bones, johnnyj, etc go trec racing and KOH racing instead of wheeling on michigans public lands.

I don't think the demand for the public land is there from the younger generation like it is for the guys who wheeled for the last 30 years. You can't travel down a trail that requires 4wd, you won't find rocks and concrete and hill climbs like you will in the private parks, you can't go jeep camping on the trailside and go on an "adventure" ride, all adding up to lower the demand for cruising around on anything other than forest roads covered with snow (snofari and snowblind still seem to be popular events, but does anyone do a summer trail ride anymore?)

Outside of that, take a look at the activity level on the glfwda message board, or the land use forum here......take a look at the guys who are in the rig sections building new jeeps or modifying their trail rigs and are actually out using them, how many have a glfwda logo under their screen name?

If the GLFWDA wants to gain membership, maybe they should be working not only with the state, but also with the private parks to market and recruit new members and businesses to increase their overall voice.
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1. I don't recall going to any quarterly meetings drunk.
2. I don't recall going on any trail rides drunk.
3. I never stuck around to camp at any of the trail rides.
4. I know the difference between when it is appropriate to act like a jackass, and when it is inappropriate.

Regardless of that, I saw more people feel snubbed, who tried a lot harder to be a part of glfwda, then just myself, I didn't really try that hard, I wasn't and have never been interested in trying to make friends, or trying to be a part of a group who made it clear they didn't want our help.

Outside of that, look at my last post and the type of offroading I see people doing now, and tell me why those guys would be as concerned as someone like Mr. Mazzola? Mr. Mazzola enjoys "expedition" trail rides, and scenic trail rides, and self sufficient wheeling, etc. He isn't a park guy, it makes TOTAL sense to me as to why he has been so involved over the years and why he has done as much as he has.

Use Bones as the opposite end of the spectrum, he races, he travels out of state, and he may rip up and down a two track in michigan a couple times a year for some testing.....

I haven't "two tracked" or offroaded a "trail" or "orv" route outside of a private park since 2003, except for the 1 time I went rzring with hancho and trail rail in st. helen. It's been the mounds, badlands, r&v.....and it's the same for most of my friends, again, because the lower penninsula doesn't have the terrain many of us are after, but the private parks do.....
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You really believe this to be true?

How many "trail users" do you pass when you go out trailriding? When was the last time you went out trail riding?

Granted the parks are a lot smaller so you run into people just due to it being more concentrated, but I don't see very many trailriders outside of places like drummond.

If glfwda wants to increase their user reach and ability to keep land open they need to stop alienating potential members, user groups, racers, etc. They need to join forces with the orv's, the atv's, the sxs, the dune buggy guys, etc.
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when I lived in marquette I went two tracking almost daily, that was also when I cared enough to try and join glfwda as a member, a club, and work to increase awareness up there.

WhiteRhino is right, the yoopers stand to lose the most compared to any of us.
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I was referring to the groups they didn't work with in the past, racers, sxs, bikes, quads, etc. and actually join forces as an organization.
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Give it a rest? How about as an organization open your fucking eyes and realize im trying to help? You STILL have people who feel treated this way. Computeruser just posted saying he was recently treated this way.

Me personally im well over it, but your organization and even your attitude shows you guys aren't passed it and won't be for the foreseeable future.


Do you feel that GLFWDA doesnt like new people?????? i cant tell.




that was ten years ago so im sure the leadership has changed.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #86
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There are times you're an all right guy, but there are other times you are such a fucking cry baby. This is one of those times.

You are bitching about something that happened a long time ago. Computeruser wants to help, but wants it to be handed to him as if it's that easy(computeruser, that sounds bad but I don't mean it that way. read on.) My attitude doesn't show shit as I'm not really any part of GLFWDA at this point. There is a process to helping with pretty much anything. Considering the things that are being done, they aren't the "do this" type of jobs that can just be doled out.

As for you, how the hell are you trying to help? You go on and on about something that happened 10 years ago, and have stated in this thread that you don't care, yet you go out of your way to complain about it just like you do most things. If you want to help, shut the fukc up and help instead of being a whiner about the past.
There are tines you're an all right guy and there are times you're to fucking stupid to get the point....im bitching about nothing. Im telling you why glfwda struggled 10 years ago, and why you're still struggling today. Take it or leave it the attitude still largely remains.


Im going out pf my way? Not really, its not taking any effort, im simply typing on a keyboard.

If you want me to shut the fukc up instead of telling computer user how wrong he is why don't you welcome his willingness to help and do something to help glfwda? Or you can point fingers about why he isn't getting a VOLUNTEER organization to accept his WILLINGNESS to help?
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #87
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There are tines you're an all right guy and there are times you're to fucking stupid to get the point....im bitching about nothing. Im telling you why glfwda struggled 10 years ago, and why you're still struggling today. Take it or leave it the attitude still largely remains.


Im going out pf my way? Not really, its not taking any effort, im simply typing on a keyboard.

If you want me to shut the fukc up instead of telling computer user how wrong he is why don't you welcome his willingness to help and do something to help glfwda? Or you can point fingers about why he isn't getting a VOLUNTEER organization to accept his WILLINGNESS to help?
Yes, you're right. You are the solution. Forgive me.

Also, I gave computeruser clear instructions how to go about helping, and I sincerely hope he follows through. I can't do anymore than that, nor have I told him he is wrong. I'm sure it's easy for you to see that.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #88
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I said nothing about being the solution. Now you're just being silly.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:43 PM   #89
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I said nothing about being the solution. Now you're just being silly.
You sure think you have all the answers.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #90
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You sure think you have all the answers.
I do? Well, fuck me sideways put me in charge!

Only answer I've given is to try and join forces with other groups like duffman outlined so perfectly, and to quit turning help away like has been done for too long, and suggested a lot of people aren't as into trailriding and they may not be as interested as guys like you and mr. Mazolla and computer user and that's why you may not have the number of volunteers you're looking for. But if those are all bad ideas then forgive me for trying to brainstorm and make some suggestions.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #91
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you know suggestions are not taken well on here Kickstand.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #92
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You don't give up. You keep saying things that aren't true. Let me outline...

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I do? Well, fuck me sideways put me in charge!
Contact Phittie and he will put your name in the hat.

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Only answer I've given is to try and join forces with other groups like duffman outlined so perfectly,
Attempts have been made, and I'm sure will likely be made in the future to join forces.

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and to quit turning help away like has been done for too long,
When has GLFWDA, recently, turned anyone away? This thread is about looking for help. Those that have expressed interest have been given directions.

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and suggested a lot of people aren't as into trailriding and they may not be as interested as guys like you and mr. Mazolla and computer user and that's why you may not have the number of volunteers you're looking for.
As stated earlier, I agree the people on this forum aren't probably the target users of state trails as most of the ones who wheel have been doing it for a long time and have well built rigs and want the challenge that parks offer. That doesn't mean there isn't lots of people who like state trails, and it surely doesn't mean we should give it up state trails.

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But if those are all bad ideas then forgive me for trying to brainstorm and make some suggestions.
You have done a stellar job of only offering help and we greatly appreciate it.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #93
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i would love to get involved. I live in south west michigan. Ive been wanting to join a club but cant find one nearby. any info would be helpful.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 06:59 PM   #94
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i would love to get involved. I live in south west michigan. Ive been wanting to join a club but cant find one nearby. any info would be helpful.
http://www.glfwda.org/content.php?5-clubs

There are other clubs as well that may suit you better but I don't have a directory of them. If you would like to work with GLFWDA, please contact Phittie on this board. Email info on post #23.

Thanks.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #95
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just did thanks.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #96
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Ive really no dog in this hunt. I do know computeruser on a personal level as he and I have shared many miles in the UP, the LP as well as both of us being involved in other ventures aside from "wheeling." Oz, I can assure you his intentions are sincere as is his ability to fulfill his intentions.

IMO, we need to define "wheeling." It means different things to different people. For some its nothing but ORV parks and the rocks, for others its as simple as fire roads and 2 tracks that lead to remote areas. The general public sees it as what some of the membership here on GL4X4 does when they post up a vid of them tearing up the landscape or seeing how long they can smoke a tire on a public road. Like it or not, public image is whats pushing lawmakers to continue to close land.

kb8ymf mentioned above...

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Your a 4wheeler and you want to wheel, right? Hence for the last few years GL has alligned their meetings with one of the popular events for that quarter. SnoFari in January, Two Tracker Spring clean up and Silver lake during the summer and DOA or Trolls Fall color tour in the fall.
Sno fari and DOA are not all encompassing events. If one wants to make the argument that GLFWDA is arranging quarterly meetings around events, the events need to be manageable by all. Not just those with armored rigs running on 35"+ tires, locked etc. Sno Fari and DOA are not my type of "wheeling." While it may sound like I am whining, I'm merely citing examples of why quarterly meetings are not attended by all those interested in helping out. Id love to volunteer time, but not if it means traveling 6+ hours to an event I am not interested in participating in just so I can be present at the meeting. Let alone actually getting time off work for any of the other meetings. Silver Lake is a good spot, but getting in there on a weekend can be a serious PITA.

There is also credibility to the notion mentioned earlier in this thread about being an outsider in the eyes of certain clubs. i.e. if you are not rolling on 37" tires, you've got no business being part of the club.

So folks like me just pony up the funds to help the fight, even though the routes I travel are more than likely not in danger of being closed. Its not as simple as "if you do not volunteer, donate money or participate, you don't care."
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #97
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I would gladly do something to help, last time I was on public land I got my rig impounded for "spinning my tires on public property" by a state police officer, assisted by a DNR and a 4 tow trucks... I even had an orv sticker... Every time a group goes the cops ruin it. So we are pushed to private property wheeling or driving 100 miles to twisted or other parks...correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is a park for us in the NW Michigan "index finger" area?? I'd like to get the heat off these public areas and let the groups have some fun....
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #98
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Also after asking the Dnr officer what I honestly did wrong he said "you CANNOT make one full revolution of a tire with no forward movement, In turn destroying potential wildlife"....it was some real BS. It's hard to ride when the road has 2 ft of sloppy muddy water to get through.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #99
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I would gladly do something to help, last time I was on public land I got my rig impounded for "spinning my tires on public property" by a state police officer, assisted by a DNR and a 4 tow trucks... I even had an orv sticker... Every time a group goes the cops ruin it. So we are pushed to private property wheeling or driving 100 miles to twisted or other parks...correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is a park for us in the NW Michigan "index finger" area?? I'd like to get the heat off these public areas and let the groups have some fun....
Did you actually "spin your tires on public property?"

ORV sticker is irrelevant as is the size of the group. Ive been involved in trips with 40+ vehicles and not one of us had any run-ins with law enforcement.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #100
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Also after asking the Dnr officer what I honestly did wrong he said "you CANNOT make one full revolution of a tire with no forward movement, In turn destroying potential wildlife"....it was some real BS. It's hard to ride when the road has 2 ft of sloppy muddy water to get through.
2' of mud is not something a normal vehicle can get through. And you slogging your way through it only makes it deeper, hence holds water longer, takes longer to dry out. Next guy comes and does the same thing.... Vicious cycle. Eventually the mud hole is 1/2 mile long, and vids are being posted here of "organized rides" through the mud hole on public property.
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