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Old July 7th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by hosejockey4506 View Post
Is GLFwd association pursuing the atv and utv crowd? i would imagine that there is was more of them in michigan then full size people maybe they could be a asset????
Short answer is YES but I'll let one of GL BOD specifically answer that question.


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I for one am not willing to get involved with anything like this that is government run as far as off roading they waste to much damn money and time.
It's the government that is the manager of our public lands. The situation is those we 'hired' to do the job are NOT listening to us anymore and have taken it upon themselve to tell us what's good for us.
Getting involved is the only way we can pressure them to start giving us what we are due. To do that takes time. The real bottom line is this, if we don't stay involved your kids or grandkids will NEVER know or experience what you have wheeling off road.

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Old July 7th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #62
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Y not link forums with glfwd and greatlakes4x4 or join them? Maybe more people would be willing to look, help out in other ways or email our representives on land use issues and such.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 06:27 PM   #63
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Because not everyone likes to, or has the rig to drive hard rock trails. Many just like to cruise through the woods. I'd bet the amount of people that like two tracks far outnumbers those who like the parks. Otherwise, there would be lots more parks.
You really believe this to be true?

How many "trail users" do you pass when you go out trailriding? When was the last time you went out trail riding?

Granted the parks are a lot smaller so you run into people just due to it being more concentrated, but I don't see very many trailriders outside of places like drummond.

If glfwda wants to increase their user reach and ability to keep land open they need to stop alienating potential members, user groups, racers, etc. They need to join forces with the orv's, the atv's, the sxs, the dune buggy guys, etc.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #64
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exactly, the LP had me wanting to just hit up the parks, as here in the UP you dont need a park as the public lands offer some great wheeling, and I would love to help keep it that way, so may not help for lp section of woods but the good fight is for places like the UP to keep it opened so if you ever did come up here you can enjoy it as it will be there open.
when I lived in marquette I went two tracking almost daily, that was also when I cared enough to try and join glfwda as a member, a club, and work to increase awareness up there.

WhiteRhino is right, the yoopers stand to lose the most compared to any of us.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #65
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If glfwda wants to increase their user reach and ability to keep land open they need to stop alienating potential members, user groups, racers, etc. They need to join forces with the orv's, the atv's, the sxs, the dune buggy guys, etc.
i believe this is why this post is here.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #66
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i believe this is why this post is here.
I was referring to the groups they didn't work with in the past, racers, sxs, bikes, quads, etc. and actually join forces as an organization.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:43 PM   #67
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You want to offer a t shirt for $40 to support a organization that's totally fine. I will gladly donate or overpay if it is helping out a good cause.

Asking me to travel across the state to meet 2-4 times a month in a meeting that I really feel not much gets done that could not be done via internet is totally uncalled for.

I am all for keeping the trails clean. I admit I am not one to "tread lightly" although I will bitch out someone that heads off the trail to play in some cattails or leaves derbies behind.

You want me to donate Cash (and be forgotten) then fine. If I can get a hat or t shirt to show for it that's totally cool. But, don't make me feel obligated to attend meetings just because it is the right thing to do. When I get shunned because I can not make every single meeting that really has me question the reasoning.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #68
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You want to offer a t shirt for $40 to support a organization that's totally fine. I will gladly donate or overpay if it is helping out a good cause.

Asking me to travel across the state to meet 2-4 times a month in a meeting that I really feel not much gets done that could not be done via internet is totally uncalled for.

I am all for keeping the trails clean. I admit I am not one to "tread lightly" although I will bitch out someone that heads off the trail to play in some cattails or leaves derbies behind.

You want me to donate Cash (and be forgotten) then fine. If I can get a hat or t shirt to show for it that's totally cool. But, don't make me feel obligated to attend meetings just because it is the right thing to do. When I get shunned because I can not make every single meeting that really has me question the reasoning.
you didn't donate and you didn't go (or not go for that matter) to any meetings? and nobody has shunned you. Another thing I don't think anyone here expects you to be able to tread lighty in your 12,00lbs plastic jeep tube buggy with a watts link
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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #69
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Which means they are worth keeping open right?
of course
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Old July 7th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #70
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Bought a hat and a shirt for the heck of it. Now please STFO about that Pj idea HCH.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #71
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As someone who likes two-tracks, dispersed camping on state land, and things of that sort, I'd be interested in playing a bigger role in the advocacy side of things. Parks don't interest me and never will, and the loss of trail mileage and the (real or perceived) law enforcement harassment in the lower peninsula is a big part of what keeps me on the tarmac and out of the woods.

Past contacts that I have made with GLFWDA leadership and past attempts to become involved with trail clean-up and other activities have not produced very positive interactions. I certainly have not received the sort of responses that left me feeling like GLFWDA wanted me to contribute my time and energy and opinions. So I send my $40 or whatever dues are these days, and call it good. But I could do more.

I think that GLFWDA needs to understand that there are A LOT of us who want to be involved, and who have the time and energy and desire to contribute to maintaining full-size vehicle access on state lands. But because we don't want to join off-road clubs, or attend meetings held at bars, or be part of a certain clique, or things of that sort, we're left out of the mix.

If GLFWDA is open to new blood and new ideas, if sharing information with newer folks to help them grow into a productive role within the group is something one can reasonably expect, then I'm game to give greater involvement with GLFWDA a shot. But if I'm just going to be told again to join a local club and interface with GLFWDA through that club...
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #72
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You really believe this to be true?

How many "trail users" do you pass when you go out trailriding? When was the last time you went out trail riding?

Granted the parks are a lot smaller so you run into people just due to it being more concentrated, but I don't see very many trailriders outside of places like drummond.
Yes, I do believe this to be true. EVERY time I go wheeling on state land, even during the week, I see at least 3 or 4 other rigs. That doesn't seem like much, but that's in the middle of the woods away from everything so one could only guess how many are in the woods at any given time. As for when the last time I went was, it was probably about 3 weeks ago when I was up north last with my jeep. I don't know what that has to do with much of anything, but I go out in the woods pretty much every time I go north so I go out quite often.

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If glfwda wants to increase their user reach and ability to keep land open they need to stop alienating potential members, user groups, racers, etc. They need to join forces with the orv's, the atv's, the sxs, the dune buggy guys, etc.
Really? Give it a rest. 10 years ago. We've discussed this already. Beat a dead horse, but get the fukc over it. As for joining forces, attempts have been made but no real progress has been made except with one atv group. While many of the issues are the same, end goals are different and there are trush issues that need to be broken through before it'll happen. As you can certainly relate with, people get an idea in their head and have trouble forgetting it even if things are entirely different.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #73
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As someone who likes two-tracks, dispersed camping on state land, and things of that sort, I'd be interested in playing a bigger role in the advocacy side of things. Parks don't interest me and never will, and the loss of trail mileage and the (real or perceived) law enforcement harassment in the lower peninsula is a big part of what keeps me on the tarmac and out of the woods.

Past contacts that I have made with GLFWDA leadership and past attempts to become involved with trail clean-up and other activities have not produced very positive interactions. I certainly have not received the sort of responses that left me feeling like GLFWDA wanted me to contribute my time and energy and opinions. So I send my $40 or whatever dues are these days, and call it good. But I could do more.

I think that GLFWDA needs to understand that there are A LOT of us who want to be involved, and who have the time and energy and desire to contribute to maintaining full-size vehicle access on state lands. But because we don't want to join off-road clubs, or attend meetings held at bars, or be part of a certain clique, or things of that sort, we're left out of the mix.

If GLFWDA is open to new blood and new ideas, if sharing information with newer folks to help them grow into a productive role within the group is something one can reasonably expect, then I'm game to give greater involvement with GLFWDA a shot. But if I'm just going to be told again to join a local club and interface with GLFWDA through that club...
The first step is generally club level activities as they do more "on the ground" type work. GLFWDA is usually overseeing something or working with Lansing. If you want to be involved at that level, you're going to have to start going to meetings more. This thread was started in an attempt to find new candidates for President, and it was also mentioned there were numerous vacancies in United. If you want to step up, then email Phittie as was mentioned previously in this thread.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #74
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As someone who likes two-tracks, dispersed camping on state land, and things of that sort, I'd be interested in playing a bigger role in the advocacy side of things. Parks don't interest me and never will, and the loss of trail mileage and the (real or perceived) law enforcement harassment in the lower peninsula is a big part of what keeps me on the tarmac and out of the woods.

Past contacts that I have made with GLFWDA leadership and past attempts to become involved with trail clean-up and other activities have not produced very positive interactions. I certainly have not received the sort of responses that left me feeling like GLFWDA wanted me to contribute my time and energy and opinions. So I send my $40 or whatever dues are these days, and call it good. But I could do more.

I think that GLFWDA needs to understand that there are A LOT of us who want to be involved, and who have the time and energy and desire to contribute to maintaining full-size vehicle access on state lands. But because we don't want to join off-road clubs, or attend meetings held at bars, or be part of a certain clique, or things of that sort, we're left out of the mix.

If GLFWDA is open to new blood and new ideas, if sharing information with newer folks to help them grow into a productive role within the group is something one can reasonably expect, then I'm game to give greater involvement with GLFWDA a shot. But if I'm just going to be told again to join a local club and interface with GLFWDA through that club...
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The first step is generally club level activities as they do more "on the ground" type work. GLFWDA is usually overseeing something or working with Lansing. If you want to be involved at that level, you're going to have to start going to meetings more. This thread was started in an attempt to find new candidates for President, and it was also mentioned there were numerous vacancies in United. If you want to step up, then email Phittie as was mentioned previously in this thread.

Thank you for making my point so well. Please understand that that sort of response is NOT the sort of invitation that endears someone to donate their time to a group or a cause. If recruitment and retention are important, a group needs to find how to take volunteers' initiative and energy and engage it, not just let the world know that the group exists and then sit back and hope for the best.

I don't expect the red carpet to be rolled out and to be handed an ice cream and a balloon, but I do believe that a group that was serious about getting more people involved in its operation and its mission would do more than just say "hey, you're going to have to come to our quarterly meeting." Sure, I'll see about doing that, but the natural question that someone in my shoes would ask would be what, in the meantime, should someone interested in full-size vehicle access be doing? If a group doesn't have a readily and publicly available answer to that question, that group runs the risk of the prospective member/participant losing interest between now and the next meeting he can attend. Even if the interest doesn't wane, the level of investment will be less and the likelihood of a future diminution of interest increases.

I offer this only as food for thought for GLFWDA. Clearly membership numbers and involvement are a problem for the group, or it wouldn't be necessary to put out an open call for a PRESIDENT and for other important officers. And maybe I'm not the only one who feels the way I have described.

My 2c, for what it's worth.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #75
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Let's say you were given a task. How would you know much of anything on how to accomplish that task, or how would a board member know you were capable of accomplishing such tasks after such a short discussion?

Nobody is blowing you off. I answered your question in regards to you being interested in a board position so I pointed you to the current VP of GLFWDA. That is the next step. There is no real way around it. You would then need to be voted in by the members, and the voting happens at a meeting.

If your inquiring how to be more productive in general, then again you need to be brought up to speed on things. It's not like doing a brake job on your jeep where I could just say "replace my brake pads" and you could then do it.

I guess if going to a meeting or at least having more much more in depth discussion are out of the question, then you probably couldn't offer much help without at the bare minimum GLFWDA finding out who you are and what you bring to the table. What exactly are you wanting to help with? Do you want to help with trail cleanups? You could be pointed to the clubs that organize those and they would give you instruction from there. Do you want to help with working with the DNR? Then you'll have to find out the issues currently being worked on prior to being able to help?


Point is, you can't really just walk up to anyone doing anything and say, "How can I help" without first going through the process of finding out what you are wanting to and willing to help with, and then you'll have to be brought up to speed.

It should also be mentioned that often times if you were to speak with someone in person at an event where there is a GLFWDA tent, they will be happy to speak with you about any issues and try to give you more info on anything you ask. Then again, those tents are oftentimes run by volunteers that aren't always up on the latest happenings because board members aren't always available to attend those events. However, they try their hardest to guide people in the direction needed so they can be put to work. I wonder though, if someone really wanted to help, why couldn't they investigate a bit further to find out whats needed? We're not talking about solving a mystery here. Just a bit of initiative. They are clearly being told who to contact and / or where to go to be given further information.
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Will someone please argue with me?

Last edited by oz97tj; July 7th, 2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by MiNi Beast
exactly, the LP had me wanting to just hit up the parks, as here in the UP you dont need a park as the public lands offer some great wheeling, and I would love to help keep it that way, so may not help for lp section of woods but the good fight is for places like the UP to keep it opened so if you ever did come up here you can enjoy it as it will be there open.


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Great points but here's the thing. You can't "legally" wheel the hard stuff in the UP either. The only difference is you are getting away with it......... for now. State law says you can only travel where a conventional 2wd vehicle can go. IE, granny's grocery getter.

So, if we want to keep, or get back, or maintain the wheeling in the UP, it's the same issue.

Guys, I am not here to convince anyone who doesn't think it's worth it to get involved. I'm here to bring up the issue that continued help is needed and there are worthwhile things happening. On the other hand, I don't really see why some of you want to throw in the towel on our freedom. Maybe you all voted for Obama?
Here's one example of a trail being used illegally in the UP . They are moving the snowmobile trail because of it.
http://www.fs.fed.us/nepa/nepa_proje...?project=36606
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CE -- Relocate wetland segments of snowmobile trails to higher, drier ground to prevent wetland damage resulting from illegal ORV use on the snowmobile trail during the snow-free season. Old wetland segments would be closed and rehabilitated.

Last edited by Easy_E; July 7th, 2012 at 11:43 PM.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 02:31 AM   #77
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Chad, get over it or stop posting here about it.

The rest of you, get involved or DON'T bitch about when shit cloeses.

Whiterhino "Jim" and others are pleading with you to help, not argue whos fucking case wins....

If you can help with trail closures and regulations and airn't serious about what's goin on in this state then stop fucking posting and let the poeple who are read the helpful information and move forward.

I've wheeled about the past 18ys some form of jeep/scout. I have enjoyed Sno-blind, R/V, Pig gig, Mounds, West Branch, Silver lakes Sand Dunes to Bundy Hill and Twisted Trails. I have never been to the U.P. and it seems if I don't I'll be missing out. With that said, We must look past old diffferences and overcome new ones. Idiots who think they know all and Idiots who get the wrong information are all the same. So lets try to educate them both.

I'm asking for everyone in this thread to stop bickering, please.
Points were made back and forth, move on and lets try to be more open minded.

This state needs lots of help, be one to stand up and shout "I am here here!"
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Old July 8th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #78
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Really? Give it a rest. 10 years ago. We've discussed this already. Beat a dead horse, but get the fukc over it. As for joining forces, attempts have been made but no real progress has been made except with one atv group. While many of the issues are the same, end goals are different and there are trush issues that need to be broken through before it'll happen. As you can certainly relate with, people get an idea in their head and have trouble forgetting it even if things are entirely different.
Give it a rest? How about as an organization open your fucking eyes and realize im trying to help? You STILL have people who feel treated this way. Computeruser just posted saying he was recently treated this way.

Me personally im well over it, but your organization and even your attitude shows you guys aren't passed it and won't be for the foreseeable future.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 09:07 AM   #79
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Because of job obligations and location, I'm not very flexible to attend meetings that typically occur 2-3 hours away.

However, allow me to offer a different observation (not related to who welcomed or rejected who).

To have an impact, the offroad community needs to truly be united. Here are my observations:

Dirt Bikes - well-organized, funded, and influential via the CCC. Historically, they've been successful in establishing trail systems throughout the state. They're also consistently working to convert more 50" trail to single track trail to exclude ATVs - both by exploiting relationships with the DNR and passively by maintaining 50" trails at 24" levels.

ATVs - Virtually unorganized, with a few individuals trying to do the right thing - so little to no influence. As a result, they've lost some 50" trails as they were converted to 24". Prognosis os poor as efforts to organize are scuttled by rise of UTV groups wanting 50" trails opened up for SxS UTVs - which also draws more fire from single track crowd.

Snow Machines - The model for eveyone to follow. Well-organized, well-funded, and influential. They have manufacturer backing and have made the connection with locales that welcome (or depend upon) that snow machine $ in the winter.

Full-size 4x4s: Some small victories (rocks at St Helen & Mounds, Drummond routes) but largely playing a defensive game from a poorly-funded position.

The animosity between the groups keeps us weak. Snow machines and dirt bikers view ATVs as the enemy. The ATV groups are torn between ATVs and UTVs and sport riders (more like bikes vs. utilities (more like full-size 4x4s).

Look at the PR battle, since that's how things play in Lansing. Snow machine riders are well-behaved, revenue-producers who bring their $50K+ rigs to town, spend money for lodging/food/bar, and create no land damage as they courteously ride the marked trails. Dirt bike folks make a lot of noise, but show up in good numbers, especially for organized events. Cheaper than snow riders (partially because it's warm enough to allow camping), they spend some money. X Games and other media instances reinforce dirt biking/MX as a sport, which gives halo effect.

On the other hand ATV riders are destructive louts who live to tear up trails and run off-trail. They're perceived to be youngsters who spend little money in town, camp out and bring their own Natty Light with them. Older riders are hunters who only use rigs for hunting/fishing duties. Full-size 4x4s are mullet-sporting vandals looking to turn donuts in a meadow and mud-bog a wetland. No good PR - and much of the bad behavior is actually at the hands of up-north locals - not folks who traveled 3+ hours to to ride.

Until all motorized off road users present a united front (don't need to merge, just not snipe each other) we're not going to get the needed traction. The sportsmen get this (even bow vs gun hunters) as do the greenie weenies.
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Old July 8th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #80
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A couple other advantages to the snowmobiles.

1) Since they ride on the snow, they make no noticeable impact to the land.
2) The noise they make is not heard by most because of the season. No one is at their cabin & if they are, the windows are closed.
3) No dust.
4) Because the season does not support camping, they bring a much higher revenue to the local motels, hotels and eateries.

RE many of the posts being made, it reminds me of our staff meetings at work. 15 people will sit in a meeting and when a new idea is brought up, 8 of those people will chime in with reasons why we shouldn't, it won't work or it can't be done. 6 will waffle and be non committal and only one will say it's a good idea and that he has the solution.

There's a lot more "glass half empty" folks out there than "glass half full".

Computeruser, can you be specific about when you were snubbed and by who?
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub

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