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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:19 AM   #41
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I think another factor comes down to the type of wheeling people are doing.

Michigan doesn't have the terrain to support a Tellico, Black Hills, Moab, Windrock, etc. Michigan has sandy two tracks and mud, this is why so many private parks have opened up with man made obstacles/trails. We didn't have that option 10 years ago, we had public land, the dunes, and the mounds. We took trips to the UP, we took trips to Canada, and we took trips out of state because we didn't have options so WE HAD To work with GLFWDA.

I'll say it again, there was a generation of us people like myself, chevotass, trailrail, hosejockey, alumcj, etc. that COULD be very active in GLFWDA, and most of those guys still wheel in one fashion or another (i'd be the exception who really doesn't). There's also a big group outside of that who don't get online, all of us were involved with clubs and became members of glfwda, and most (I won't put words in others mouths) were snubbed, so the glfwda missed out. It was like the old guard didn't want a bunch of 20 somethings who still wanted to act a little silly at the campfire and drink a few beers around to tarnish "their" sport. Now, those guys wheel private parks, they don't go 2 tracking all that often, and guys like Hoser, bones, johnnyj, etc go trec racing and KOH racing instead of wheeling on michigans public lands.

I don't think the demand for the public land is there from the younger generation like it is for the guys who wheeled for the last 30 years. You can't travel down a trail that requires 4wd, you won't find rocks and concrete and hill climbs like you will in the private parks, you can't go jeep camping on the trailside and go on an "adventure" ride, all adding up to lower the demand for cruising around on anything other than forest roads covered with snow (snofari and snowblind still seem to be popular events, but does anyone do a summer trail ride anymore?)

Outside of that, take a look at the activity level on the glfwda message board, or the land use forum here......take a look at the guys who are in the rig sections building new jeeps or modifying their trail rigs and are actually out using them, how many have a glfwda logo under their screen name?

If the GLFWDA wants to gain membership, maybe they should be working not only with the state, but also with the private parks to market and recruit new members and businesses to increase their overall voice.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #42
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kickstand, look at the way you treat mildly retarded people on here, you snub and ridicule them. maybe 10 years ago you were a mildly retarded, loudmouth, drunken jackass. im not meaning this as a personal attack towards you or anybody else, im just saying "what if".
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:44 AM   #43
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kickstand, look at the way you treat mildly retarded people on here, you snub and ridicule them. maybe 10 years ago you were a mildly retarded, loudmouth, drunken jackass. im not meaning this as a personal attack towards you or anybody else, im just saying "what if".
I'm still mildly retarded
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:48 AM   #44
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kickstand, look at the way you treat mildly retarded people on here, you snub and ridicule them. maybe 10 years ago you were a mildly retarded, loudmouth, drunken jackass. im not meaning this as a personal attack towards you or anybody else, im just saying "what if".
I miss that guy
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:49 AM   #45
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I'm still mildly retarded
i know, i was just trying to be nice if you put yourself in the older generation's shoes do you honestly think you would have treated the 22 year old version of yourself any different?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #46
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Snofari and Snoblind are in jeopardy because trails around West Branch continue to be closed down. This is the specifics of what kb8ymf and I talked about. If this continues, these 2 runs may perish.

MSG still puts on DOA in August.

Years ago there were races sponsored by GLFWDA. Unfortunately, GLFWDA pushed out the racers and decided to be trail ride only. To me, this was one of the biggest mistakes ever made. And with the influx of R&V and TT, the races are now happening on private land where they don't need the GLFWDA insurance umbrella. Plus there are mud bogs and sand drags on private land now.

These mistakes have hurt us. They have hurt our numbers and clout, and with that, have hurt our ability to have influence regarding our public land. I believe we continue to get caught up aligning hardcore wheeling with riding 2 tracks. I don't expect to travel down a state 2 track and encounter rocks or other obstacles. But I do expect to travel down a state 2 track. This my friends is what we are losing.

The guys who are racing would have migrated into racing anyway. But guess what, many of them including JohnnyJ and jeepm715 take family vacations where they want to 2 track. Just ask them.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #47
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i know, i was just trying to be nice if you put yourself in the older generation's shoes do you honestly think you would have treated the 22 year old version of yourself any different?
1. I don't recall going to any quarterly meetings drunk.
2. I don't recall going on any trail rides drunk.
3. I never stuck around to camp at any of the trail rides.
4. I know the difference between when it is appropriate to act like a jackass, and when it is inappropriate.

Regardless of that, I saw more people feel snubbed, who tried a lot harder to be a part of glfwda, then just myself, I didn't really try that hard, I wasn't and have never been interested in trying to make friends, or trying to be a part of a group who made it clear they didn't want our help.

Outside of that, look at my last post and the type of offroading I see people doing now, and tell me why those guys would be as concerned as someone like Mr. Mazzola? Mr. Mazzola enjoys "expedition" trail rides, and scenic trail rides, and self sufficient wheeling, etc. He isn't a park guy, it makes TOTAL sense to me as to why he has been so involved over the years and why he has done as much as he has.

Use Bones as the opposite end of the spectrum, he races, he travels out of state, and he may rip up and down a two track in michigan a couple times a year for some testing.....

I haven't "two tracked" or offroaded a "trail" or "orv" route outside of a private park since 2003, except for the 1 time I went rzring with hancho and trail rail in st. helen. It's been the mounds, badlands, r&v.....and it's the same for most of my friends, again, because the lower penninsula doesn't have the terrain many of us are after, but the private parks do.....
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:07 AM   #48
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exactly, the LP had me wanting to just hit up the parks, as here in the UP you dont need a park as the public lands offer some great wheeling, and I would love to help keep it that way, so may not help for lp section of woods but the good fight is for places like the UP to keep it opened so if you ever did come up here you can enjoy it as it will be there open.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:08 AM   #49
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1. I don't recall going to any quarterly meetings drunk.
2. I don't recall going on any trail rides drunk.
3. I never stuck around to camp at any of the trail rides.
4. I know the difference between when it is appropriate to act like a jackass, and when it is inappropriate.

Regardless of that, I saw more people feel snubbed, who tried a lot harder to be a part of glfwda, then just myself, I didn't really try that hard, I wasn't and have never been interested in trying to make friends, or trying to be a part of a group who made it clear they didn't want our help.

Outside of that, look at my last post and the type of offroading I see people doing now, and tell me why those guys would be as concerned as someone like Mr. Mazzola? Mr. Mazzola enjoys "expedition" trail rides, and scenic trail rides, and self sufficient wheeling, etc. He isn't a park guy, it makes TOTAL sense to me as to why he has been so involved over the years and why he has done as much as he has.

Use Bones as the opposite end of the spectrum, he races, he travels out of state, and he may rip up and down a two track in michigan a couple times a year for some testing.....

I haven't "two tracked" or offroaded a "trail" or "orv" route outside of a private park since 2003, except for the 1 time I went rzring with hancho and trail rail in st. helen. It's been the mounds, badlands, r&v.....and it's the same for most of my friends, again, because the lower penninsula doesn't have the terrain many of us are after, but the private parks do.....
i wasnt there so i have no clue, i was just adding a thought. sometimes being young you dont realize just how much of a jackass you are. i know this from personal experience. i dont blame anybody that treated me like shit when i was in my early 20's i didnt realize how douchy i was until i got a little older.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:09 AM   #50
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i wasnt there so i have no clue, i was just adding a thought. sometimes being young you dont realize just how much of a jackass you are. i know this from personal experience, i dont blame anybody that treated me like shit when i was in my early 20's i didnt realize how douchy i was until i got a little older.
so in other words your just an older douche now?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #51
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so in other words your just an older douche now?
exactly! i never said i am not still a douche. you should have met me when i was 17-25, you were in for a treat
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Old July 7th, 2012, 02:17 PM   #52
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I think the thing people are missing is ALL of us got started doing mild two track trails, most likely on state land. Sure, Michigan doesn't have much of anything for hardcore wheeling on state land but there are miles upon miles of trails to explore. There are thousands of people that don't get on this website, or any other offroad related website that have a bone stock Jeep that just like to cruise through the trails. Those same people have no clue that GLFWDA even exists. They are clueless that trails are being taken away all the time. They are clueless of what to do to help. Even if they are so inclined to look for ways to help, they often times do nothing more than find GLFWDA and sign up on the forum and think thats enough and then never check again. Or worse, they sign up here and think its the same thing because the names are similar.

GLFWDAs battle, in my mind, is making themselves more public. I've been saying that for years. The people going to the events and logging on to these websites generally understand what safe legal wheeling is and how to not screw it up. We need to be more vocal in the general public to spread the awareness, and then maybe we can make some progress.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent. lol. Point is, this shouldn't be an argument about private parks vs state land as they provide seperate types of wheeling and compliment each other. GLFWDA has worked with some parks to help them, but the main focus is state land because thats where the focus needs to be.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #53
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Why work so hard to save two tracking? Support private parks with time and money. If there was a legit place with good wheeling I could see people really trying, ie tellico, but you don't have that naturally so spend money letting the parks create it for you and stop buying passes ht support the dnr.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #54
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I think another factor comes down to the type of wheeling people are doing.

Michigan doesn't have the terrain to support a Tellico, Black Hills, Moab, Windrock, etc. Michigan has sandy two tracks and mud, this is why so many private parks have opened up with man made obstacles/trails. We didn't have that option 10 years ago, we had public land, the dunes, and the mounds. We took trips to the UP, we took trips to Canada, and we took trips out of state because we didn't have options so WE HAD To work with GLFWDA.

I'll say it again, there was a generation of us people like myself, chevotass, trailrail, hosejockey, alumcj, etc. that COULD be very active in GLFWDA, and most of those guys still wheel in one fashion or another (i'd be the exception who really doesn't). There's also a big group outside of that who don't get online, all of us were involved with clubs and became members of glfwda, and most (I won't put words in others mouths) were snubbed, so the glfwda missed out. It was like the old guard didn't want a bunch of 20 somethings who still wanted to act a little silly at the campfire and drink a few beers around to tarnish "their" sport. Now, those guys wheel private parks, they don't go 2 tracking all that often, and guys like Hoser, bones, johnnyj, etc go trec racing and KOH racing instead of wheeling on michigans public lands.

I don't think the demand for the public land is there from the younger generation like it is for the guys who wheeled for the last 30 years. You can't travel down a trail that requires 4wd, you won't find rocks and concrete and hill climbs like you will in the private parks, you can't go jeep camping on the trailside and go on an "adventure" ride, all adding up to lower the demand for cruising around on anything other than forest roads covered with snow (snofari and snowblind still seem to be popular events, but does anyone do a summer trail ride anymore?)

Outside of that, take a look at the activity level on the glfwda message board, or the land use forum here......take a look at the guys who are in the rig sections building new jeeps or modifying their trail rigs and are actually out using them, how many have a glfwda logo under their screen name?

If the GLFWDA wants to gain membership, maybe they should be working not only with the state, but also with the private parks to market and recruit new members and businesses to increase their overall voice.
My $.02 is the cliff notes to this.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #55
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Why work so hard to save two tracking? Support private parks with time and money. If there was a legit place with good wheeling I could see people really trying, ie tellico, but you don't have that naturally so spend money letting the parks create it for you and stop buying passes ht support the dnr.
My. $.0
Because not everyone likes to, or has the rig to drive hard rock trails. Many just like to cruise through the woods. I'd bet the amount of people that like two tracks far outnumbers those who like the parks. Otherwise, there would be lots more parks.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #56
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If I was so NOT disorganized and able to keep track of stuff, I would step up and do it. I don't work and would love to do more that clean up a trail and or 5 or 6 years ago I could have done it but after my surgery I can't even keep my day to day life going on the right path. DOn't get me wrong things have gotten better but I am no were near were I was nor will I ever be.

I don't want to lose any of the Federal or State land that we are allowed to go out and have fun day of riding.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #57
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in the jeep the state trails are boring and uneventful, however I still enjoyed them...in the rzr the state trails are a riot because I haul ass on them! Way faster than I feel comfortable in a fullsize rig doing
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #58
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exactly, the LP had me wanting to just hit up the parks, as here in the UP you dont need a park as the public lands offer some great wheeling, and I would love to help keep it that way, so may not help for lp section of woods but the good fight is for places like the UP to keep it opened so if you ever did come up here you can enjoy it as it will be there open.
Great points but here's the thing. You can't "legally" wheel the hard stuff in the UP either. The only difference is you are getting away with it......... for now. State law says you can only travel where a conventional 2wd vehicle can go. IE, granny's grocery getter.

So, if we want to keep, or get back, or maintain the wheeling in the UP, it's the same issue.

Guys, I am not here to convince anyone who doesn't think it's worth it to get involved. I'm here to bring up the issue that continued help is needed and there are worthwhile things happening. On the other hand, I don't really see why some of you want to throw in the towel on our freedom. Maybe you all voted for Obama?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #59
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in the jeep the state trails are boring and uneventful, however I still enjoyed them...in the rzr the state trails are a riot because I haul ass on them! Way faster than I feel comfortable in a fullsize rig doing
Which means they are worth keeping open right?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #60
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Is GLFwd association pursuing the atv and utv crowd? i would imagine that there is was more of them in michigan then full size people maybe they could be a asset????



I for one am not willing to get involved with anything like this that is government run as far as off roading they waste to much damn money and time.
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