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Old July 6th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #21
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How about a lesson in economics ...............Snowmobile Assn, backed by the snowmobile manufacturers.
Motorcycles backed by the Motorcycle manufacturers.
Full size vehicles back by......................you guessed it, NOBODY, NADA, ZILCH.
They're not any smarter they just had something valuable on their side that you failed to account for:
It's called the almighty buck! He who has the gold rules. For years these groups were funded and backed by manufacturers who provided grants to lease land to allow snowmobiles to connect all the short segments of mostly seasonal roads with.

Back in the early days no proprty owners were interested in allowing any vehicles on their land due to liability. It didn't matter what type of insurance you could present them with. They simply were not interested. Then came the eco-greens who claimed we were damaging the environment. That faction convienced the insurance underwriters that we were risks and they stopped writing insurance policies for our events. So we couldn't even get insurance to hold an event, not even a General Liability coverage policy for a club so they could use private land. It simply was not available

I know this sounds all so foreign to you not having lived through the frustrations but those of us who were around back then had no other recourse than to follow the path of least resistance to get things done. In some cases it was the only path available.

As far as ski repsorts and drag strips operating...............go find out what their liability insurance cost them for a year and then try to divide that up to make everyone pay their fair share. Why do you think lift tickets cost why do you think it cost $100 for a one day event @ Milan? Do you think the 4X4 community would tolerate that?

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So you're saying that snowmobile owners were better at soliciting resources to share the costs. I didn't mention you specifically so simmer down.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #22
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So you're saying that snowmobile owners were better at soliciting resources to share the costs. I didn't mention you specifically so simmer down.
Those that know me know that I'm not even lukewarm.

What I'm saying is this: When you have manufactureres behind you they are more than willing to throw money your way so that there is a future for their product sales.
Something full size vehicles never had a shot at because we represent less than 1% of 1% of the vehicle sales who's users purchase them specifically for off road activities.

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Old July 6th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #23
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For those looking for more information, emails are easier for me to manage than pms

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and I'll help get you hooked up

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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #24
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So you're saying that snowmobile owners were better at soliciting resources to share the costs. I didn't mention you specifically so simmer down.
It seems as thought you have a lot of great ideas of how you can get it done, but you don't want to share them? Or you just like to ramble on with no clue?

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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #25
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I agree the wheels turn slowly but have you wheeled Silver Lake, St. Helen Motor Sport Area or the rocks at the Mounds? All of these are government run and have been developed through efforts between GLFWDA and the state. Granted SL started years ago but do you know that it is GLFWDA members who actually train the new hires at SL on how to drive in the sand? Do you realize it was GLFWDA that got the exhaust laws changed at SL to allow you to drive anything but a stock level exhaust there? Do you realize that there is a rock course at the Mounds that would challenge out of state wheeling? I continue to see people bad mouth the Mounds but I challenge anyone to make it through every rock challenge there. ANYONE!

To the comments that it is the older generation with cash to burn I say BULLSHIT. Guys travel to Moab, SD, KOH, Harlan, Windrock with well built rigs but can't drive to Lansing on a weeknight for a meeting? Are you fucking nuts? These same people will browse the web for hours and posts senseless shit on Facebook but can't write a letter to their representative? There are a ton of well educated professionals here who can write excellent letters, chase down the most elusive fact just to argue and have more resources and computer knowledge than all us old folks combined but can't make the effort to make a difference or help out.

I'm not here to bash anyone. Rather, I am here to beg and plead for help.

Chad,
Your comments about getting snubbed 10 years ago need to be dropped. Everyone is human and some people rub others the wrong way. I understand what happened. But to hold a grudge and suggest others should stay away because you weren't treated fairly does none of us any good. I witnessed a lot of animosity between groups years ago. I also heard a lot of bad things about a lot of people. But I also made an effort to get to know people and draw my own conclusions and I found many of those bad people to be pretty damn good people.

To all you folks who wheel and want to continue to wheel, your help is sorely needed. Not just in the form of a check once a year, but weekly and monthy.

Please....................................
Yeah, I should let of go......bullshit. I WANTED to help, I WANTED to be involved, I joined clubs, j started clubs, I TRIED, to be the young generation. We got snubbed. It's no surprise we've all moved on.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #26
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So how are ski resorts able to operate? How are drag strips able to operate? How are they not fucked? I'll be the asshole and say that time is better spent finding those solutions and soliciting private property owners than struggling for 10 yrs to get a rock course put in. The snowmobile association in sw mi is able to put hundreds of miles of trails together that span private and gov property. Are they better at soliciting or just going about it a better way? I'll add that to the pot I guess.
Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly in favor of private parks as part of our diversity. But there are a couple down sides to it. If you don't know, I was the major push behind OSTC, (which failed) but which I also believe was an incentive to Ron that there was potential for R&V. I also did the math of looking into trying to do a park on my own and I'm here to tell you, no one is getting rich off the parks. I love them, appreciate them and don't want them to go away, but it's totally possible.

I also don't know if you know much about Paragon. It was by far the most popular wheeling park east of the Mississippi. But when local developers felt it was better suited to build an airport there, they found a loophole big enough to shut the park down. And now it's gone. So, I'm simply saying that private parks are not a guarantee either.

Private parks do not offer the adventure of exploring and simply enjoying our woods. Most people today don't realize that our state has some awesome offroad challenges on state land but they are now closed and most likely gone forever. I don't want what remains to be lost.

If this is not for you, no problem. I'm not here to argue with anyone about it. I can't push a rope so I won't try. My post was all about reaching out to those that might want to help make a difference.



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I can tell you that ancient videos of chevotass's dad, Bob Conant, Bob narring, Olaf (not sure on spelling of all their names..lol) and some of you old timers running Taqua and horse shoe are the reason I built my first rig. There are some trails in the UP that if they were legal would be some of the best wheeling in the country. I agree that the young generation and my generation is lazy as shit when it comes to public involvement with any political thing. it is actually scary and Iím as much to blame as the next guy. Iím not as involved as I should be. I do get involved with my twp meetings from time to time but nothing on this level anymore.
I hate the political side of wheeling and I will say that in my younger years I attended some GLFWDA meetings and trail cleanups and was not happy with how I was treated including getting inched off a picnic table at an event because I was labeled an outsider. To be honest if it was not for people like White Rhino and Ironman I would not even consider doing anything with it. but like white Rhino said, shit in the past should stay in the past and we do need to make a difference in the public lands. I donít think it is possible to see any of the closed trails re-open but I sure would like to wheel TQ!!!.

You guys have devoted an un believable amount of time to the sport and the results show. For that I applaud you and look up to most of you guys for what you have done.

I would not be opposed to getting more involved (even if its as much as just becoming a member and going to a few meetings a year.) I agree that there is not much in the newer generation moving up but I will say I do have a bad taste in my mouth from the past.

At my current living situation I would have no where near the time or knowledge to be a "board member" but I would not be oppossed to taking baby steps and doing my part to start low and possibly someday work up.

I have lost a great family hunting location due to a closed trail. I think alot of people dont realize that just becasue a trail is not Hardkore it could still leed to a remote location good for hunting, camping, fishing what ever. Not all trails are good or bad for fourwheeling. I think alot of people in the wheeling community probably dont care about state trails becasue they are not challenging and you cant drive the challenging parts. (in reality with the exception of a few spots the most of them are boring. I would love to see that change, there are alot of hard lines and climbs but they are closed)
There really is more to them then just wheeling tho alot are access pionts like I said to great hunting and fishing locations too.

And the scary reality is the, for lake of a better term "green movement" is getting strong while we get weaker. And they will shut everything down.

I know I speak somewhat hipacritical on this since I am not involved like I should be but you guys are 1,000% right and I will get with you to talk more on what I personally can do to be more involved. Most likely at this piont it will be more of a member type of thing at first.

I have to ask you "old timers" is there any chance to get closed trails re-opened? or is it a case closed type of thing once they are closed?

Sorry for the long post...lol
DJ,
Thanks for your sincere reply. God knows I don't have the answers. What do we need? Really, it's soup to nuts. It's the humble guy who just wants to know more about how the system works. It's the guy who can attend meetings and help out here and there. It's the guy who wants to take a position and commit some time. And it's the gung ho guy who has more time than most that can dedicate personal time to go wherever, whenever.

Can we get old trails reopened? I'd love to say sure, no problem but I would be lying. Are there some possibilities here and there? Maybe, but I don't think you will ever see what we once had. But, I look to the point made about losing hunting access. People try to go to the same place they hunted with their dad and grandfather and see it burmed off. They don't know where to turn or what to do so they shrug their shoulders and find a new "special spot".

We used to camp along the Manistee river north of Leota and buggy out of there. Now that area is closed. Why? Partially litterbugs and people that trashed the area and partially because the DNR doesn't think we belong there. Pinball Alley between West Branch and St. Helen was closed to Snofari this year. Why? Partially because the DNR does not feel this trail is of "value" and that the area can be accessed by other means. So, it boils down to one man's opinion that this trail is not important. Now when I was growing up, I understood our state land to be accessible simply because we had that right and we were allowed to wander where we wanted simply for the enjoyment of being there. Why is it now that it has to have a specific value? Isn't the joy of being in the woods enough?

Many people think that I am a Hardcore wheeler (well except Erin) and that I have to be tearing things up to have fun. Quite the contrary, I enjoy being in the woods, traveling down a simple 2 track and seeing where it goes while looking for animals, enjoying the color or snow and breathing the fresh air. We are losing this, plain and simple. If we don't continue the fight, it won't be there for your kids.

I used to go to GLFWDA meetings and see dozens of people there. Now, even though they have been tailored around other gatherings, there are a handful of people. Our current folks are getting burned out.

Now, I will say that there are times it seems that people have offered to get involved, asked for something to do and they haven't gotten a good reply. So, they drift off. This needs to change on both sides of the fence.

One other problem I have is that I don't understand the changes in the DNR. We used to have the ORV advisory board meetings where a person could attend, listen to what is going on and speak an opinion. This changed recently and I am out of the loop.

And lastly, people are in such haste now that they won't even bother to read a long post like I just typed.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #27
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Yeah, I should let of go......bullshit. I WANTED to help, I WANTED to be involved, I joined clubs, j started clubs, I TRIED, to be the young generation. We got snubbed. It's no surprise we've all moved on.
It wasn't me and I can only apologize for those that did. If I have my story straight, none of those people (or single person) are involved now. If I was part of it, I apologize again. I have been accused of snubbing people a couple times when I didn't even realize it. Shame on me but I'm not perfect.

People change, times change. But once our trails are gone, for whatever reason, getting them back is an uphill battle.

I'd like to know, did the clubs you joined or started join GLFWDA? I never heard of GLFWDA ever turning a club away.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #28
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I am hiding the chairs so you can't stand on them and yell.
Yelling won't work so that's not the point. I'm not here to argue with anyone about the past or the present or how we should or shouldn't pool our resources. What I am here to say is that we are losing ground and our current president is stepping down. We have no one to replace him and there are other positions available where help is needed.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:42 PM   #29
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It seems as thought you have a lot of great ideas of how you can get it done, but you don't want to share them? Or you just like to ramble on with no clue?
I didn't say I was going to get anything done. I am content supporting the private parks that are flexible enough to adapt and address users needs in a timely fashion. I don't rely on the gov and don't expect them to get any better at what they do. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to keep fighting the same old ways and expect a different result. While not popular, I call it like I see it. If nothing else i've generated conversation and made people think about it. You can thank me for my clueless comments if you're not too blinded to see the side i'm presenting. For every lazy person in the younger generation there's an older generation person who already has the answer, every though it hasn't been effective, and is too stubborn to take a different approach. It's been mentioned that there are a bunch of the younger gen people on here that could do research ect to help the cause but I haven't seen a thread yet asking for help researching specific issues. We're called lazy but truth is, old people haven't figured out how to utilize us. Smooches!
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Old July 6th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #30
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I'd like to note that I don't speak for CTOR. These are my opinions and mine alone.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #31
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It wasn't me and I can only apologize for those that did. If I have my story straight, none of those people (or single person) are involved now. If I was part of it, I apologize again. I have been accused of snubbing people a couple times when I didn't even realize it. Shame on me but I'm not perfect.

People change, times change. But once our trails are gone, for whatever reason, getting them back is an uphill battle.

I'd like to know, did the clubs you joined or started join GLFWDA? I never heard of GLFWDA ever turning a club away.
No, it didn't involve you, top my knowledge. I don't recall meeting you until years later.

Regardless, I can think of a good handful of people who at one time or another were snubbed by the glfwda, outside of the 2 different clubs (one i started, another I was a member of) who tried to get involved. Both became meber clubs.

The point is, tonight you are suggesting the younger generation get involved. I for one, wanted to get involved, was willing to get involved, travled hundreds of miles to get involved, and was snubbed, not just once.......that was ten years ago, I don't care to get involved anymore....and like i said there are others i know who feel the same, who off road, race, compete, trail ride, etc.

It's not personal against you at all, but now that half of us are burned out or annoyed, why would we get involved now?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #32
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why would we get involved now?
Because its different people, and a different time. The first time I met you, we began talking wheeling. Within 5 minutes you were basically calling me an idiot for being a part of GLFWDA. I wouldn't say you were snubbing me, but I surely wasn't getting a warm and fuzzy feeling. Point is, GLFWDA isn't what it was. Help, or don't, but don't lump the present with the past.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #33
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how is it that we can get involved?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 01:08 AM   #34
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how is it that we can get involved?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 05:29 AM   #35
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I didn't say I was going to get anything done. I am content supporting the private parks that are flexible enough to adapt and address users needs in a timely fashion. I don't rely on the gov and don't expect them to get any better at what they do. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to keep fighting the same old ways and expect a different result. While not popular, I call it like I see it. If nothing else i've generated conversation and made people think about it. You can thank me for my clueless comments if you're not too blinded to see the side i'm presenting. For every lazy person in the younger generation there's an older generation person who already has the answer, every though it hasn't been effective, and is too stubborn to take a different approach. It's been mentioned that there are a bunch of the younger gen people on here that could do research ect to help the cause but I haven't seen a thread yet asking for help researching specific issues. We're called lazy but truth is, old people haven't figured out how to utilize us. Smooches!
You are right, the older generation doesn't have the answers, but we have continued to try. Beating our heads against a wall? Yes, at times. Effective? Yes, at times. Effective enough? No.
You have not seen me call the younger generation lazy. You have seen me ask for their help. Simple as that.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #36
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It's been mentioned that there are a bunch of the younger gen people on here that could do research ect to help the cause but I haven't seen a thread yet asking for help researching specific issues. We're called lazy but truth is, old people haven't figured out how to utilize us. Smooches!
I guess that's exactly what we're asking for. Tell us what we're not doing right so that the younger gen will get involved. phittie1100 would appreciate knowing what the key is to this.

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It's not personal against you at all, but now that half of us are burned out or annoyed, why would we get involved now?
That's the easiest question yet to answer..........private parks will only continue to exist as long as they find it profitable. Once it just isn't worth it anymore or a developer flashes a chunk of change their way that makes retirement very enticing they will fade away. If we don't continue the fight to keep public land open there will be nothing left to wheel on.

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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:29 AM   #37
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And the moment (GOD forbid) gets an injury lawsuit and closes it's gate, you are fucked. Yes, I am a firm believer in private industry. But I also believe in maintaining access to our public lands. This is not just about hardcore rock courses. It's about being able to drive in the woods, come to a sandy hill, shift your stock (or modified) rig into 4wd and proceed with your day of leaf looking, hunting, or simply enjoying the beautiful state we have.

I think that should be what's important to every Michigander. The right to enjoy OUR public land in a way WE see fit so long as we are not destroying it.

In a free society there should be very few laws that prohibit this: "...being able to drive in the woods, come to a sandy hill, shift your stock (or modified) rig into 4wd and proceed with your day of leaf looking, hunting, or simply enjoying the beautiful state we have..."
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Old July 7th, 2012, 07:51 AM   #38
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Lol

You people that have the SAME FUCKING interests can't agree with one another. How on earth do you think you will ever get the public/government to agree?

Sure.
Private parks are sweet. What happens when they go away? Business is in place to make money. We live in a state with pretty high unemployment. Another downturn in the auto could potentially shut down these private parks when the disposable income goes away. Then. What?

I remember just a few years ago when these parks didn't exist.

Living in SE Michigan we were forced to go to the Badlands as our closest option.
Or the Mounds.

But. Fuck it. Let the mounds close. Who cares?????

Private parks Re plentiful.....for now.

Again...... I don't wheel anymore. Nor do I envision me doing so anytime soon. So who really gives. F' what i have to say......
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Old July 7th, 2012, 08:01 AM   #39
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Ive always pegged the difference between the 'old' and 'new' coinciding with old clubs before websites vs the large number of people getting into the sport via websites. if you were into wheeling in the 90s or earlier, you 'had' to be involed. there wasnt any internet forum, people had meetings. Clubs organized eventsfar in advance. even the amount of vehicles and parts available is different. if you werent involved somehow you really didnt know what was going on. i. always thought thats why so many old timers really are into it so much as a lifestyle . it wasnt practical to be a individual / casual wheeler for the most part.

Those days are just gone. I dont discount the work glwda does but i think its an uphill battle. so many people specifically do not want to be in a club anymore.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #40
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I agree. I'm not a member of GLFWDA for a club atmosphere. I'm a member because it is the only organization in Michigan working with the state government on behalf of the full size users. (us) There simply are no other options in Michigan. So, to me, it doesn't matter if a fellow wheeler is a friend or foe, an idiot or the nicest guy in the world. We are all Michigan wheelers who want to wheel in Michigan. I liken it to our military. Black, Hispanic or white, or Yankee or Johnny Reb, when they join the armed forces and go overseas, THEY ARE ALL AMERICANS AND HAVE EACH OTHER'S BACKS.

Why can't we have that mentality here? Yeah, I know, our lives aren't on the line, but our liberty sure is. I've pissed off more than one person and there are probably a few who would like to punch me in the nose. For that I apologize. But I won't apologize for caring and wanting to continue to have access to our public lands. And, this is what it is all about.

I'll say it again. I'm not here to push anyone into something they don't want to do. I'm not here to bring up old shit. I'm here to say the issues still exist and ask for anyone willing to get involved, to get involved.
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Member Southern Michigan Rock Crawlers.
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > The Pub

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