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Old July 6th, 2012, 11:34 AM   #1
whiterhino
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Default To those of you who care about wheeling in Michigan

Please do not move this to the land use section as it never gets seen there.

Bob DeVore, president of GLFWDA is stepping down after 2 terms fighting for our state. He is moving on with a position with UFWDA.

We need young blood working in our state. Many of those taking important positions are +40 years old. Who wants to step up and server a term or 2? If you value the ability to wheel public lands, please help.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #2
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I agree with WR. The younger generations have not stepped forward to continue the push to keep publilc lands open.

This is even prevalent in UFWDA today. There are 3 active BOD members and 4 open positions. Many of todays 4wheelers are simply content to fork out $20 or $30 for a weekend and call it good for their 4 wheeling experience. This garantees them a 'Cedar point' type enjoyment. It's safe. After two or three time is does become samo, samo.

I've read the post on how everyone is bragging to be in the either the 1%'er or 2%'er or even a 50%'er. How many of those that are so active in voicing their opinion on how cool they are have ever volunteered for a position in the state or even national organizations? We don't have many clubs left so I suspect we're also lost our training grounds for leaders.

Is everyone so happy with private parks that we can abandon public lands?

Things don't happen overnight as those of you have seen with The Mounds, St. Helen, and D.I. But if we don't get some fresh blood and some new faces we can likely start turning your rigs into yard art. There will be no more places to play.

How about this: Want to be a real 1%'er............volunteer for a position and do something FOR the sport.

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Old July 6th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #3
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The "older" generation has the financial stabilty to volunteer there time without financial gain. At the same time there's a belief barrier between older an younger regarding wheeling or general.ohv.

Having said that is there a site with more information regarding volunteer opportunities? Requirements of these volunteers.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:22 PM   #4
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The younger generation probably doesn't give a shit because of the cold shoulder they got years ago from the older generation.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #5
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I'm going to go with the fact that the younger generation hasn't been able to rely on the .gov for shit so far, and has little faith in being able to rely on it period. Combine that with the Boomers extending their careers(younger professional unemployment #'s) and eventually sucking social security dry...........well the picture isn't pretty.

I run private parks because I don't have to wait 10+ yrs to wheel anything worth a shit. If I handed $100K to any of the current private parks and a .gov area, the .gov area would exhaust the money "planning" while the private park would have a new course/trail/ect within a couple months.


That's my pessimistic observation of the day
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Old July 6th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #6
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As a non-wheeler......my observation:
The younger generation just wants others to do it for them.
They (and I am still only 36) seem to have this ridiculous sense of entitlement.

It blows me away.

My assumption...very few people will volunteer.
BUT
The masses will bitch when the public land goes away.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #7
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I've already put 20+ ish years in of "Public Service" through Board of Review, Planning Commission, and Commissioner.

I'm burnt out.



However through this expierience I've found;
  1. The public will treat you with disrespect
  2. Your name will be trashed
  3. You are subject to lawsuit, and/or reprocussion in violence
  4. you will have morons showing up at your house, threatening you.
Would I do it again, If I were 20 something years of age.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

You actually can change things for the better, even though the work can be stressful.
Also, I believe it is our responsibility as citizens in this country to step up and help our fellow man.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 02:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by NewXj View Post
The "older" generation has the financial stabilty to volunteer there time without financial gain. At the same time there's a belief barrier between older an younger regarding wheeling or general.ohv.

Having said that is there a site with more information regarding volunteer opportunities? Requirements of these volunteers.
Myth #1 Volunteering can be nothing more than doing research and writing letters to Legislators and Land Use Agencies.
And to your first point, I was doing Land use stuff with the DNR in 1981. Back when I was a young whippersnapper. This was before e-mail and forums and blogs. Our only avenue was sending a USPS letter or if we were lucky enough maybe the people we were trying to communicate with had a fax number.

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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
The younger generation probably doesn't give a shit because of the cold shoulder they got years ago from the older generation.
I keep hearing this but have yet to have anyone show me where this actually occured. Being part of the 'older' generation I can assure you that I have had a very few approach me and ask how to do this, or how to do that. I know that while growing up when I was putting on some of the national events like Jeep Cup and Jeep Jamborees the younger generation simply wanted to sit on the side and observe because someone else was already doing it. What happened to the younger generation approaching and asking and learning from the older generation.

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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
I'm going to go with the fact that the younger generation hasn't been able to rely on the .gov for shit so far, and has little faith in being able to rely on it period. Combine that with the Boomers extending their careers(younger professional unemployment #'s) and eventually sucking social security dry...........well the picture isn't pretty.
Isn't this along the line of 'entitlement' mentality?
So cause the gov doesn't give you a handout that the reason to not stand up and demand that they listen to you? No wonder why our voter turnout is such a disaster.

Quote:
I run private parks because I don't have to wait 10+ yrs to wheel anything worth a shit. If I handed $100K to any of the current private parks and a .gov area, the .gov area would exhaust the money "planning" while the private park would have a new course/trail/ect within a couple months.


That's my pessimistic observation of the day
Yep, doing things with the Gov takes a while. Want to know when I started trying to get rocks for the Mounds? I've still got the original letters.
But take a look at one looming project like Pinball. We need someone to spearhead some dialog with the DNR and work with those in GL that have started the ball rolling. Preachers Hill was first to go years ago, the trail in the UP, then is was Mud Lake, then Big Money, now Pinball. Pretty soon we'll be relegated to the 2 sq miles that amounts to St. Helen.
Be thankful that some of us were around when they tried to close Silver Lake. What the hell would everyone be doing now if that was closed. And YES it was very, very close to closing. Where do you think the dune flag rule came from? And seatbelts for all and the helmets on rear seat passengers with non-integral roof vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Goode View Post
As a non-wheeler......my observation:
The younger generation just wants others to do it for them.
They (and I am still only 36) seem to have this ridiculous sense of entitlement.

It blows me away.

My assumption...very few people will volunteer.
BUT
The masses will bitch when the public land goes away.
Ain't that the truth. Just look at the Lift Law ticket discussion that took place a few weeks back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
I've already put 20+ ish years in of "Public Service" through Board of Review, Planning Commission, and Commissioner.

I'm burnt out.



However through this expierience I've found;
  1. The public will treat you with disrespect
  2. Your name will be trashed
  3. You are subject to lawsuit, and/or reprocussion in violence
  4. you will have morons showing up at your house, threatening you.
Would I do it again, If I were 20 something years of age.
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

You actually can change things for the better, even though the work can be stressful.
Also, I believe it is our responsibility as citizens in this country to step up and help our fellow man.
I don't think fighting for land use grants you the same negative exposure as a public official does. Writing letters and investigating how and why the DNR does what it does, does not take the same type of commitment as PS does.

jim-kb8ymf

Last edited by kb8ymf; July 6th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
I'm going to go with the fact that the younger generation hasn't been able to rely on the .gov for shit so far, and has little faith in being able to rely on it period. Combine that with the Boomers extending their careers(younger professional unemployment #'s) and eventually sucking social security dry...........well the picture isn't pretty.

I run private parks because I don't have to wait 10+ yrs to wheel anything worth a shit. If I handed $100K to any of the current private parks and a .gov area, the .gov area would exhaust the money "planning" while the private park would have a new course/trail/ect within a couple months.


That's my pessimistic observation of the day
I agree the wheels turn slowly but have you wheeled Silver Lake, St. Helen Motor Sport Area or the rocks at the Mounds? All of these are government run and have been developed through efforts between GLFWDA and the state. Granted SL started years ago but do you know that it is GLFWDA members who actually train the new hires at SL on how to drive in the sand? Do you realize it was GLFWDA that got the exhaust laws changed at SL to allow you to drive anything but a stock level exhaust there? Do you realize that there is a rock course at the Mounds that would challenge out of state wheeling? I continue to see people bad mouth the Mounds but I challenge anyone to make it through every rock challenge there. ANYONE!

To the comments that it is the older generation with cash to burn I say BULLSHIT. Guys travel to Moab, SD, KOH, Harlan, Windrock with well built rigs but can't drive to Lansing on a weeknight for a meeting? Are you fucking nuts? These same people will browse the web for hours and posts senseless shit on Facebook but can't write a letter to their representative? There are a ton of well educated professionals here who can write excellent letters, chase down the most elusive fact just to argue and have more resources and computer knowledge than all us old folks combined but can't make the effort to make a difference or help out.

I'm not here to bash anyone. Rather, I am here to beg and plead for help.

Chad,
Your comments about getting snubbed 10 years ago need to be dropped. Everyone is human and some people rub others the wrong way. I understand what happened. But to hold a grudge and suggest others should stay away because you weren't treated fairly does none of us any good. I witnessed a lot of animosity between groups years ago. I also heard a lot of bad things about a lot of people. But I also made an effort to get to know people and draw my own conclusions and I found many of those bad people to be pretty damn good people.

To all you folks who wheel and want to continue to wheel, your help is sorely needed. Not just in the form of a check once a year, but weekly and monthy.

Please....................................
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #10
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Isn't this along the line of 'entitlement' mentality?
So cause the gov doesn't give you a handout that the reason to not stand up and demand that they listen to you? No wonder why our voter turnout is such a disaster.
I wasn't asking for a handout. I don't want a cookie, I just don't want to pay into a system that isn't going to exist when [entitlement]"my turn"[/entitlement] comes around. You call it entitlement, I call it being robbed by the older generations who seen the system failing and have basically said "f it, I'll still get mine". 70% of the people recently polled in this country didn't want .gov run healthcare.........I'll leave it at that.

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Yep, doing things with the Gov takes a while. Want to know when I started trying to get rocks for the Mounds? I've still got the original letters.
That's my point. It took 10+ yrs and a half a million dollars to put in a course that R&V could have made in less than 3 months and for 1/4 the price. Thanks for your dedication over the years but I have to ask, looking back, do you think your time was best spent doing it the way it was done?
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #11
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I wasn't asking for a handout. I don't want a cookie, I just don't want to pay into a system that isn't going to exist when [entitlement]"my turn"[/entitlement] comes around. You call it entitlement, I call it being robbed by the older generations who seen the system failing and have basically said "f it, I'll still get mine". 70% of the people recently polled in this country didn't want .gov run healthcare.........I'll leave it at that.



That's my point. It took 10+ yrs and a half a million dollars to put in a course that R&V could have made in less than 3 months and for 1/4 the price. Thanks for your dedication over the years but I have to ask, looking back, do you think your time was best spent doing it the way it was done?
And the moment (GOD forbid) gets an injury lawsuit and closes it's gate, you are fucked. Yes, I am a firm believer in private industry. But I also believe in maintaining access to our public lands. This is not just about hardcore rock courses. It's about being able to drive in the woods, come to a sandy hill, shift your stock (or modified) rig into 4wd and proceed with your day of leaf looking, hunting, or simply enjoying the beautiful state we have.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #12
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The "older" generation has the financial stabilty to volunteer there time without financial gain. At the same time there's a belief barrier between older an younger regarding wheeling or general.ohv.

Having said that is there a site with more information regarding volunteer opportunities? Requirements of these volunteers.
www.glfwda.org
-Land Use Committee - we are always in need of folks to watch their backyard for county road commission issues that affect OHV use; there are 2 national forests in MI that each publish regular SOPA (Schedule of Proposed Action) announcing what their planned, ongoing and wrapped up projects are, each of these needs to be reviewed for interesting items; several opportunities each year to participate in volunteer clean-up projects

-Associate Membership Secretary - we currently have an open position that needs to be filled. AM Secretary is tasked with making contacts with the business community to solicit support for our events, solicit ads for our quarterly publications; help increase awareness among our members of these business supporters

In the fall we will hold our normal elections for President and Treasurer. WhiteRhino already mentioned that we are currently searching for one or more people interested in running for the President's position. Our current Treasurer plans to run for his office again, but that shouldn't stop anyone else from running for the position if that's the kind of thing that interests them.

Summer is pretty quiet, but in the fall, winter and spring we usually have other opportunities to get involved on a smaller basis - donate a couple of hours to man a PR booth at an event like the Jeep Blessing in Mesick for example.

Requirements? Many projects only require a phone and/or Internet access, some require transportation to/from events but we car pool alot. You can get involved just by tagging along with other volunteers to see how it all works too. The biggest requirement is a willingness to get involved. Unless you are a regular trainer at work or school, or have a job giving presentations, no one is expecting you to promote GLFWDA all by yourself at an event.

And not picking on NewXJ in particular, seems to be a common theme in this thread - "older generation"? WhiteRhino said only "old guys over 40" get involved? If any of us had ever grown up we wouldn't still be playing in the mud with our toy trucks, would we?
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Old July 6th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #13
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70% of the people recently polled in this country didn't want .gov run healthcare.........I'll leave it at that.
Yep and the Legislature does what they please because 'we the public' don't have the balls to stand up to them and vote their asses out of office. Back to my voter turn out comment!


Quote:
That's my point. It took 10+ yrs and a half a million dollars to put in a course that R&V could have made in less than 3 months and for 1/4 the price. Thanks for your dedication over the years but I have to ask, looking back, do you think your time was best spent doing it the way it was done?
It's not a matter of would I do it again. Of course anyone of us back then would. Back then It was a fact of life that there was was absolutely no other avenue possible.
And believe me, those of us around then saw the private parks coming. We also felt that there is a need to save public land. The sad part is us old timers see that a vast majority of the new generation hasn't a clue what the PIW trail is. Or how much fun it is to turn the corner on a trail and see a HUGE drop off into a river (38Rd.) or a mountain of rocks (Brakeline Hill) that NO ONE has ever climbed before. The Michigan based trails like those are Taqua Trail, Bear Shit Trail, and Horseshoe Trail. Those are all trails we explored and found on public land which 'park people' will never be able to appreciate. WR was around back then also and he knows exactly the trails I'm talking about.

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Old July 6th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #14
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And the moment (GOD forbid) gets an injury lawsuit and closes it's gate, you are fucked. Yes, I am a firm believer in private industry. But I also believe in maintaining access to our public lands. This is not just about hardcore rock courses. It's about being able to drive in the woods, come to a sandy hill, shift your stock (or modified) rig into 4wd and proceed with your day of leaf looking, hunting, or simply enjoying the beautiful state we have.
So how are ski resorts able to operate? How are drag strips able to operate? How are they not fucked? I'll be the asshole and say that time is better spent finding those solutions and soliciting private property owners than struggling for 10 yrs to get a rock course put in. The snowmobile association in sw mi is able to put hundreds of miles of trails together that span private and gov property. Are they better at soliciting or just going about it a better way? I'll add that to the pot I guess.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #15
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Yep and the Legislature does what they please because 'we the public' don't have the balls to stand up to them and vote their asses out of office. Back to my voter turn out comment!




It's not a matter of would I do it again. Of course anyone of us back then would. Back then It was a fact of life that there was was absolutely no other avenue possible.
And believe me, those of us around then saw the private parks coming. We also felt that there is a need to save public land. The sad part is us old timers see that a vast majority of the new generation hasn't a clue what the PIW trail is. Or how much fun it is to turn the corner on a trail and see a HUGE drop off into a river (38Rd.) or a mountain of rocks (Brakeline Hill) that NO ONE has ever climbed before. The Michigan based trails like those are Taqua Trail, Bear Shit Trail, and Horseshoe Trail. Those are all trails we explored and found on public land which 'park people' will never be able to appreciate. WR was around back then also and he knows exactly the trails I'm talking about.

jim-kb8ymf
I can tell you that ancient videos of chevotass's dad, Bob Conant, Bob narring, Olaf (not sure on spelling of all their names..lol) and some of you old timers running Taqua and horse shoe are the reason I built my first rig. There are some trails in the UP that if they were legal would be some of the best wheeling in the country. I agree that the young generation and my generation is lazy as shit when it comes to public involvement with any political thing. it is actually scary and I’m as much to blame as the next guy. I’m not as involved as I should be. I do get involved with my twp meetings from time to time but nothing on this level anymore.
I hate the political side of wheeling and I will say that in my younger years I attended some GLFWDA meetings and trail cleanups and was not happy with how I was treated including getting inched off a picnic table at an event because I was labeled an outsider. To be honest if it was not for people like White Rhino and Ironman I would not even consider doing anything with it. but like white Rhino said, shit in the past should stay in the past and we do need to make a difference in the public lands. I don’t think it is possible to see any of the closed trails re-open but I sure would like to wheel TQ!!!.

You guys have devoted an un believable amount of time to the sport and the results show. For that I applaud you and look up to most of you guys for what you have done.

I would not be opposed to getting more involved (even if its as much as just becoming a member and going to a few meetings a year.) I agree that there is not much in the newer generation moving up but I will say I do have a bad taste in my mouth from the past.

At my current living situation I would have no where near the time or knowledge to be a "board member" but I would not be oppossed to taking baby steps and doing my part to start low and possibly someday work up.

I have lost a great family hunting location due to a closed trail. I think alot of people dont realize that just becasue a trail is not Hardkore it could still leed to a remote location good for hunting, camping, fishing what ever. Not all trails are good or bad for fourwheeling. I think alot of people in the wheeling community probably dont care about state trails becasue they are not challenging and you cant drive the challenging parts. (in reality with the exception of a few spots the most of them are boring. I would love to see that change, there are alot of hard lines and climbs but they are closed)
There really is more to them then just wheeling tho alot are access pionts like I said to great hunting and fishing locations too.

And the scary reality is the, for lake of a better term "green movement" is getting strong while we get weaker. And they will shut everything down.

I know I speak somewhat hipacritical on this since I am not involved like I should be but you guys are 1,000% right and I will get with you to talk more on what I personally can do to be more involved. Most likely at this piont it will be more of a member type of thing at first.

I have to ask you "old timers" is there any chance to get closed trails re-opened? or is it a case closed type of thing once they are closed?

Sorry for the long post...lol

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Old July 6th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #16
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So how are ski resorts able to operate? How are drag strips able to operate? How are they not fucked? I'll be the asshole and say that time is better spent finding those solutions and soliciting private property owners than struggling for 10 yrs to get a rock course put in. The snowmobile association in sw mi is able to put hundreds of miles of trails together that span private and gov property. Are they better at soliciting or just going about it a better way? I'll add that to the pot I guess.
I think a big part of the snowmobile trails is that they do not do any property damage like fourwheeling does.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #17
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So how are ski resorts able to operate? How are drag strips able to operate? How are they not fucked? I'll be the asshole and say that time is better spent finding those solutions and soliciting private property owners than struggling for 10 yrs to get a rock course put in. The snowmobile association in sw mi is able to put hundreds of miles of trails together that span private and gov property. Are they better at soliciting or just going about it a better way? I'll add that to the pot I guess.

How about a lesson in economics ...............Snowmobile Assn, backed by the snowmobile manufacturers.
Motorcycles backed by the Motorcycle manufacturers.
Full size vehicles back by......................you guessed it, NOBODY, NADA, ZILCH.
They're not any smarter they just had something valuable on their side that you failed to account for:
It's called the almighty buck! He who has the gold rules. For years these groups were funded and backed by manufacturers who provided grants to lease land to allow snowmobiles to connect all the short segments of mostly seasonal roads with.

Back in the early days no proprty owners were interested in allowing any vehicles on their land due to liability. It didn't matter what type of insurance you could present them with. They simply were not interested. Then came the eco-greens who claimed we were damaging the environment. That faction convienced the insurance underwriters that we were risks and they stopped writing insurance policies for our events. So we couldn't even get insurance to hold an event, not even a General Liability coverage policy for a club so they could use private land. It simply was not available

I know this sounds all so foreign to you not having lived through the frustrations but those of us who were around back then had no other recourse than to follow the path of least resistance to get things done. In some cases it was the only path available.

As far as ski repsorts and drag strips operating...............go find out what their liability insurance cost them for a year and then try to divide that up to make everyone pay their fair share. Why do you think lift tickets cost why do you think it cost $100 for a one day event @ Milan? Do you think the 4X4 community would tolerate that?

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Old July 6th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrail302 View Post
I think a big part of the snowmobile trails is that they do not do any property damage like fourwheeling does.
Ever seen a trail after a 20,000 lb 4X4 groomer with a sno-plane behind it does to a trail when it can't quite make a turn?
I wouldn't exactly give them a free pass on not doing any damage to the ground.
In the same regard I would say that after we've gone through an area it would regow also.
Just look at some trails that have been closed for a few years now, Nature has a great resilience to heal herself like we were never there.
j
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Old July 6th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #19
MiNi Beast
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I'll help, what do I need to do or talk to in my area?>
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Old July 6th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #20
Nick144
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Can someone PM me more info?.....I am 21 years old, love 4 wheeling,shit i 2 track my 1 ton ranger and go to the parks, I want to see public land open for my kids down the road, most other people my age could give 2 shits, any info appreciated. thanks
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