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Old June 23rd, 2012, 08:34 AM   #21
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Why does the electric car debate always come down to"it doesn't work for my needs so it's dumb"?


Look at all of the 10k per year leases.there has got to be a lot of people that don't need a vehicle with a400 mile range.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 08:42 AM   #22
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It's not dumb because it's not for everyone's needs, it's dumb because having to replace the battery after 5 years use is the cost equivalent of having to replace the engine of a conventional car every 5 years.

I don't see electric being any more than a novelty (Volt) or rich man's toy (Tesla) until the cost/benefit ratio evens out with fossil fuel vehicles.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:16 AM   #23
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Range fear is huge for these cars and I don't think pure electric will ever be main stream they will have a market just not main stream. Diesel electric is the way to go for the best possible combo of range and fuel consumption.

The real issue with electric cars is they are tech based. Just like your phone or your laptop. When you buy a gas car it's value will hold up very well for 5-10 years were as electric won't at this point. Anyone wanna buy an old palm pilot? It was the cutting edge shit ten years ago....
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:46 AM   #24
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Here's a possible way for electric cars to make inroads to consumers....

Sell them with 'contracts' like cell phones.


You 'buy' the car at a reduced price, but 'contract' with the automaker for the charging station. You pay a monthly fee for a certain amount of kilowatts, whether you use them or not, and pay a higher fee for overages. The cost to the consumer may be less than an equivalent gas powered car, or it may be more, but that is forgotten because of the sweet hi tech car you got for a low price.

I haven't run any numbers, but look how that approach got everyone on cell phones when originally you paid hundreds of dollars for a phone, and 50 cents a minute for talk time with only 60 minutes included in your base rate.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:46 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mulely View Post
Oh, electric cars are not for everyone that's for sure. But I think for the vast majority of urban commuters it would be a boon. Coupled with an actual, effective rail system for city to city trips, it would be great.

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electric cars for that market yes, electric cars that cost $50k to $100k those are for novelty rich in coastal city markets - and that market is not 20,000 cars per year like they hope.

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Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
Why does the electric car debate always come down to"it doesn't work for my needs so it's dumb"?

Look at all of the 10k per year leases.there has got to be a lot of people that don't need a vehicle with a400 mile range.
this isn't a debate about electric cars per se', but the segment they are targeting. if someone is spending $50k to 100k on a car, do they really care if the price of gas is north of $5/gallon? probably not. are there some wealthy that love the trendiness of green? sure. is that market 20,000 cars per year? lol, no.


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Range fear is huge for these cars and I don't think pure electric will ever be main stream they will have a market just not main stream. Diesel electric is the way to go for the best possible combo of range and fuel consumption.

The real issue with electric cars is they are tech based. Just like your phone or your laptop. When you buy a gas car it's value will hold up very well for 5-10 years were as electric won't at this point. Anyone wanna buy an old palm pilot? It was the cutting edge shit ten years ago....
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:52 AM   #26
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I think you are seeing huge strives in the range issue in two years or less. If they can get it to 400 then every argument in this thread is out the window.
dont get me wrong i like what i have become accustomed to IE gas /bull diesel.

However i am certain that VFD operated TEFC motors will out last any conventional engine.

Think about 4 wheel electric final drives for off road.

No drive shafts required, being abel to operate each wheel at indipendant power and speed.

I know there is a little hurtle left to go, but it won,t be much longer.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by dougstephvoor View Post
I think you are seeing huge strives in the range issue in two years or less. If they can get it to 400 then every argument in this thread is out the window.
dont get me wrong i like what i have become accustomed to IE gas /bull diesel.

However i am certain that VFD operated TEFC motors will out last any conventional engine.

Think about 4 wheel electric final drives for off road.

No drive shafts required, being abel to operate each wheel at indipendant power and speed.

I know there is a little hurtle left to go, but it won,t be much longer.
I have heard promises of 2/4 wheel electric drive(with only one wheel being used at times) for over 15 years. The battery technology/weight/cost savings is the major thing. You can extend range easily your just going to have the thing weigh like a ton to do it. This reduces acceleration and any chance of getting up a hill respectively.

In order for a electric car to really prove itself in today it will need 4 doors, ac, and all the standard options with a few bells thrown in. Basically the Hi-wire skateboard design which I have been drooling over for 15 years now. In a nutshell, it could be powered by electric once the battery technology progresses enough.
Sadly, the Hy-wire has gone from a release date that has been pushed back and pushed back and is now just considered a concept.

Oh and for those people saying the battery packs cost a lot to replace that's total BS. There are many companies that can replace burnt out sections of that pack for under a grand.

The only way to make a reliable, lightweight, 4 person car, that will get into the 400 mile range. Is to have a very small electric motor on that car that runs when the car is stopped.
I HAVE DONE THIS.
I had a 91 tempo(don't judge) in 2005 that ran a 96 volt system and had a 5hp brigs running the charger when stopped. I simply had to start the brigs when stopped and turn on the charger. I let it run for 4-5 hours then shut it off at lunch. I used like 2 gallons a week and easily drove more then 350 miles a week.

Sure a engineer could figure out a way to get the tiny engine that would charge the engine when stopped and shut off on its own into a car that would seat 4 and have many comforts.

I did not have ac, power windows, trunk space, and the thing was a dog. But, that was 7 years ago and was very easy to do then.

Not, many people drive over 100 miles without stopping. Usually it is people going to work. Making a car that would do automatically what I had to do manually in my application above would would sell like nuts.
Mass producing that 150 gallon per mile 4 person car and selling it for 25k would be a huge slap to the auto industry.

But, hey I'm just a crazy dreamer and trying to tell people how easy it is to do THIS^^ while getting ridiculed gets old real fast.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 11:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougstephvoor View Post
I think you are seeing huge strives in the range issue in two years or less. If they can get it to 400 then every argument in this thread is out the window.
dont get me wrong i like what i have become accustomed to IE gas /bull diesel.

However i am certain that VFD operated TEFC motors will out last any conventional engine.

Think about 4 wheel electric final drives for off road.

No drive shafts required, being abel to operate each wheel at indipendant power and speed.

I know there is a little hurtle left to go, but it won,t be much longer.
I am not an engineer, so when I can see the wrongness of your post, it's pretty bad.

No one is doubting the longevity of the motors, it's the stupid expensive battery pack.

What do you do when your cell phone battery no longer holds a charge? Get a new battery, or get a new phone? Same for the cars, except multiply cost by 100.

400 mile range on a charge don't mean squat when you need 8 hours to recharge.
Drive 400 miles on a tank of gas and you can refill in 5 minutes. Don't go on about 'bed down for the night', I routinely drive 10+ hours, often 12 hours, before calling it a night.

4 motors, one at each wheel? Are you talking hub motors? We are talking 'unsprung weight'. Look it up, it's bad.

VFD's? yep, those NEVER fail.

The only way electric can become competitive is through economy of scale. Until their is sufficient demand, there will be no economy of scale. Hence my cell phone marketing plan outlined above. They need to create demand.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 11:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
I have heard promises of 2/4 wheel electric drive(with only one wheel being used at times) for over 15 years. The battery technology/weight/cost savings is the major thing. You can extend range easily your just going to have the thing weigh like a ton to do it. This reduces acceleration and any chance of getting up a hill respectively.

In order for a electric car to really prove itself in today it will need 4 doors, ac, and all the standard options with a few bells thrown in. Basically the Hi-wire skateboard design which I have been drooling over for 15 years now. In a nutshell, it could be powered by electric once the battery technology progresses enough.
Sadly, the Hy-wire has gone from a release date that has been pushed back and pushed back and is now just considered a concept.

Oh and for those people saying the battery packs cost a lot to replace that's total BS. There are many companies that can replace burnt out sections of that pack for under a grand.

The only way to make a reliable, lightweight, 4 person car, that will get into the 400 mile range. Is to have a very small electric motor on that car that runs when the car is stopped.
I HAVE DONE THIS.
I had a 91 tempo(don't judge) in 2005 that ran a 96 volt system and had a 5hp brigs running the charger when stopped. I simply had to start the brigs when stopped and turn on the charger. I let it run for 4-5 hours then shut it off at lunch. I used like 2 gallons a week and easily drove more then 350 miles a week.

Sure a engineer could figure out a way to get the tiny engine that would charge the engine when stopped and shut off on its own into a car that would seat 4 and have many comforts.

I did not have ac, power windows, trunk space, and the thing was a dog. But, that was 7 years ago and was very easy to do then.

Not, many people drive over 100 miles without stopping. Usually it is people going to work. Making a car that would do automatically what I had to do manually in my application above would would sell like nuts.
Mass producing that 150 gallon per mile 4 person car and selling it for 25k would be a huge slap to the auto industry.

But, hey I'm just a crazy dreamer and trying to tell people how easy it is to do THIS^^ while getting ridiculed gets old real fast.
I know someone who did this with a Vega wagon back in 1976. You are correct, it's quite easy. Even 'auto starting' the genset charger is simple, use a voltage sensor that trips at a certain voltage (on a 96 volt system like you described, that would be at about 10% voltage drop, or when battery reaches 87 volts) and starts the genset. I've seen competition car audio guys do this to start the engine to power their megawatt amps.

A small diesel genset and a managable battery pack could possibly make a 200mpg commuter- with AC, power windows, entertainment systems etc.

If I had the time, I would do it with an old minivan so I wouldn't have to sweat size issues as much. Would be a fun project.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 04:12 PM   #30
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I can't wait until battery technology finally comes about.

Fuck the green aspect. I can't wait to see what it feels like to drive a 1:1 version of a brushless RC car.
thats what Im talking about a tekin 4600kv motor but 100times bigger
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 04:53 PM   #31
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granola scarfing, long haired, tree-hugging, shower-avoiding, whale-wars-watchers don't spend that kind of coin on transportation.

Lol
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 05:58 PM   #32
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thats what Im talking about a tekin 4600kv motor but 100times bigger
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I can't wait until battery technology finally comes about.

Fuck the green aspect. I can't wait to see what it feels like to drive a 1:1 version of a brushless RC car.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:00 PM   #33
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granola scarfing, long haired, tree-hugging, shower-avoiding, whale-wars-watchers don't spend that kind of coin on transportation.

Lol


Nope, most normal people don't spend more then they need to on transportation. But, when it is a business expense that can be written off..

Me myself am just a cheap bastard that thinks paying $4 a gallon is stupid. The only time you will see me hugging a tree is to put a strap around it.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:50 PM   #34
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thats what Im talking about a tekin 4600kv motor but 100times bigger
I only ran Castle. Saw too many Tekin RX8's burn buggies to the ground.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:02 PM   #35
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With this statement in the article: some 7,000 AA-sized lithium-ion cells bolted into panels under the passenger compartment. Reminds me of a comedy skit on Second city tv a long time ago. It was a Electric VW beetle powered by flash light batterys. It failed to start because one of the 100 or so, batteries was dead and they started replacing them one at a time. Never got it running during the show.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 10:16 AM   #36
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I guess I don't really see how these cars are any different than any other new technology.

When was the last new thing you saw brought about that the first one was the final solution.

These things are just like the first cars, phones, refrigerators, vacuums, phones computers, cell phones, CD players,etc.... The people that want to be all hip and cutting edge will pay the price and shoulder the burden of improvements that make a decent product for the masses.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #37
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I prefer spending LOTS of money on Fuel!! So it's not for me. Plus I couldn't come see my Family in the D without stopping for a charge . . . gay.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #38
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The last thing that I read a few months back about Tesla was that they were in a holding pattern until some more cash came in. I do like the concept and love the looks of their cars, but unil better battery technology is developed, electric cars will only be for a nitche market.


Example: Middle of Febreary in the Midwest. It's dark, snowing/freezing rain, and you have a head wind with an hour drive. Battery life is already hurting from the cold. You are moving along at a decent 40-45 mph because the roads are just getting slick. You have the electric heater and blower fan blowing full blast to keep the windshield clear, electric wipers are on, lights are on, and you have the stereo on to keep you awake.
What do you think the actual range of that car is in those conditions? Maybe 100 miles tops?
Same thing in the summer. A/C cranking on a 100 degree day is going to blow away any chance of hitting 350 miles.

We have this discussion at work all the time.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #39
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The last thing that I read a few months back about Tesla was that they were in a holding pattern until some more cash came in. I do like the concept and love the looks of their cars, but unil better battery technology is developed, electric cars will only be for a nitche market.


Example: Middle of Febreary in the Midwest. It's dark, snowing/freezing rain, and you have a head wind with an hour drive. Battery life is already hurting from the cold. You are moving along at a decent 40-45 mph because the roads are just getting slick. You have the electric heater and blower fan blowing full blast to keep the windshield clear, electric wipers are on, lights are on, and you have the stereo on to keep you awake.
What do you think the actual range of that car is in those conditions? Maybe 100 miles tops?
Same thing in the summer. A/C cranking on a 100 degree day is going to blow away any chance of hitting 350 miles.

We have this discussion at work all the time.

Exactly. It's technology. When new tech comes out it usually is buggy as fukc , inefficient, and way expensive. But after some people jump on and are willing to pay the 50k-100k to be cool there will be money in the budgets to make improvements. Other people will see there could actually be a desire for these things and they will work to solve the problems, and so on and so forth.

I dunno why it's any different in people's minds. Just look how far shit has come in 5-10 years with electronics around your house. Maybe it's because none of us really were around when gasoline powered cars weren't the simple convenience they are now, and the growing pains they went through. Well maybe whiterhino...he may still remember the horse and buggy days.

The only disagreement I have is government funding to develop this stuff under the guise that it's going to save us all, break dependence on foreign oil, But considering some of the dumb shit our government pisses away money on at least this has a future unlike unwed mothers in the ghetto that shit out children like bastard making Pez dispensers and aid to countries that are fixing to kill us all as soon as we give them the means to do so.
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Old June 24th, 2012, 07:41 PM   #40
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Saw a Fisker sedan yesterday on Put-In-Bay. Sharp.
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