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Old May 24th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #1
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Default Why should the government recognize any marriage?

Note that my question is “why”, not “what”.
Specifically:
Why should the government treat 2 people who have developed a strong emotional bond and a desire to share lives and assets long term be treated differently than any other 2 people in society?

Discuss.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #2
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The 2 reason I can think of are:

To help parents to be able to pool resources to make it easier to raise their children.

And

To make it easier for people to plan a life together.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #3
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Legal reasons...financial, final wishes, taxes, etc.

Just like a birth certificate. Is that so difficult to grasp?
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:34 PM   #4
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Good thought provoking question.

"For the kids" would be my response. Slight tax break, official documentation to make sure the children are cared for during the unfortunate event of divorce, retirement planning, etc.

I think it is more important for the government to recognize those in a marriage during a time of divorce to make sure they are treated fairly, then for any other reason.

Divorce sucks, but, that's part of life. Making sure there are laws in place to protect the legal rights of the parents, children, etc. Are the only reason I can see the government recognizing it.

You don't want the gov involved? don't have kids, don't get married. That simple.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Legal reasons...financial, final wishes, taxes, etc.

Just like a birth certificate. Is that so difficult to grasp?
But why tax 2 people differently just because their "married"
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
But why tax 2 people differently just because their "married"
Not saying I necessarily agree with the government does it, but it's because there is a different financial landscape between two single people compared to two people that are married to each other.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 07:07 PM   #7
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social engineering: the government taxes and gives tax breaks to create a given outcome. The society believes (right or wrong, I don't judge) that men and women should marry for the cause of continuing the human race, and maintain a society.
Having people unattached procreating causes societal breakdown. Having "same sex" marriage causes the same breakdown. The great Roman empire was in a similar situation (hedonism, liberal sexual ideas, homosexuality, etc) prior to the empire falling.
Just my $0.02
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Old May 24th, 2012, 07:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Not saying I necessarily agree with the government does it, but it's because there is a different financial landscape between two single people compared to two people that are married to each other.
How is the financial landscape different significantly when you compare two adult roommates and a married couple? If Mike and I were "living in sin" how would we be different financially??

I think the government should stay out of it. Ideally the government could or would protect the children using marriage but I know a girl who is proof that it doesn't. I am sure she is getting government bennys for the current pregnancy even though she isn't raising any of her 3 other kids. If the government was protecting children they would take a different angle than marriage... like not allowing her to procreate yet again..

Historically I am sure it was put in place to make divorcing harder, to protect the kids or morality.. or something. Until the 70s a significant number of women stayed home to care for the kids so the idea of spousal support and the other penalties of divorce (in addition to the stigma of being the divorcee) I am sure detered people. We know that no longer works to stop or reduce divorce.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:54 PM   #9
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There is actually a bible verse that covers this idea or conversation pretty well (in my opinion I guess). I'll keep it out though. Becuase I don't want to turn this into another Religious thread. I'll try my best.

Besides having to have the ability to draw a line at who get's bennies or not. I don't see why they need to define it I mean, can Jim bob marry his Donkey so the Donkey can get medical Insurance? It's a far out Analagy, but you have to draw the line. Nuggets made a good point in the other thread. The freedoms we enjoy are, partially, an illusion. We're still not completely free but that lack of Freedom allows us all to be free.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 06:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
How is the financial landscape different significantly when you compare two adult roommates and a married couple? If Mike and I were "living in sin" how would we be different financially??

I think the government should stay out of it. Ideally the government could or would protect the children using marriage but I know a girl who is proof that it doesn't. I am sure she is getting government bennys for the current pregnancy even though she isn't raising any of her 3 other kids. If the government was protecting children they would take a different angle than marriage... like not allowing her to procreate yet again..

Historically I am sure it was put in place to make divorcing harder, to protect the kids or morality.. or something. Until the 70s a significant number of women stayed home to care for the kids so the idea of spousal support and the other penalties of divorce (in addition to the stigma of being the divorcee) I am sure detered people. We know that no longer works to stop or reduce divorce.
Roommates don't share car insurance, life insurance, checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts, etc.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 07:21 AM   #11
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In a perfect world, it wouldn't matter.

We would've either adopted a flat income tax (no deductions/exemptions) or eliminated income taxes and moved to consumption taxes, so marital status wouldn't matter.

The reason it does is because our legal system is based on the old English (and in some areas French) legal systems that were conceived in a time when woment weren't equal and needed a father or marriage to protect their interests.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #12
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There is no legal reason for marriage that can't be settled by contract law. Child custody, child support, alimony, life & health insurance, divorce, etc, can all be settled with a basic contract at the beginning of a relationship and changed at anytime when the parties both agree to the change. This would leave the government's role to settling contractual disputes in court and nothing else. People would be able to agree to what ever arrangement they decide.

It's not that complicated.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Roommates don't share car insurance, life insurance, checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts, etc.
I am sure there are cases where roommates do maybe split or have those sorts of arraingements but I also know plenty of married people who do not share accounts, insurance, or the traditional items.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 02:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
There is no legal reason for marriage that can't be settled by contract law. Child custody, child support, alimony, life & health insurance, divorce, etc, can all be settled with a basic contract at the beginning of a relationship and changed at anytime when the parties both agree to the change. This would leave the government's role to settling contractual disputes in court and nothing else. People would be able to agree to what ever arrangement they decide.

It's not that complicated.
I think if every couple had a unique contract spelling out the details of their relationship things could get very complicated. Also, it could easily lead to a form of spousal abuse where one spouse takes advantage of a less legally savvy partner be getting them to sign a bad agreement. (I’m envisioning “Paradise by the Dashboard Light” but with her whipping out a stack of legal documents for him to sign outlining their relationship before they can continue.)

I think it’s still best to have a standard set of laws that define the default legal rules for “united couples” and only have special agreements when they want something different.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I think if every couple had a unique contract spelling out the details of their relationship things could get very complicated. Also, it could easily lead to a form of spousal abuse where one spouse takes advantage of a less legally savvy partner be getting them to sign a bad agreement. (I’m envisioning “Paradise by the Dashboard Light” but with her whipping out a stack of legal documents for him to sign outlining their relationship before they can continue.)

I think it’s still best to have a standard set of laws that define the default legal rules for “united couples” and only have special agreements when they want something different.
Life is complicated, but contract law isn't, or at least it doesn't have to be.

If you are an adult who is mentally fit to sign a contract, then you are responsible for any contract that you agree to freely. Why should a "marriage" contract be any different? Coercion by one party over another would nullify a contract either way.

Standards would develop naturally in due course, but there is no reason for them to be mandated. There are too many unique situations for a single standard.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #16
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But why tax 2 people differently just because their "married"
the wedding cake/photography/planning/dress/tuxedo lobby is too big...




seriously? are you seriously asking why the Government gives special treatment to any class of people(s) ?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Roommates don't share car insurance, life insurance, checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts, etc.
You are 100% wrong.

I lived with my wife before we were married. We shared car insurance, bank accounts, and health/life insurance. The only thing that changed when we got married was her last name

Quote:
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I am sure there are cases where roommates do maybe split or have those sorts of arraingements but I also know plenty of married people who do not share accounts, insurance, or the traditional items.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #18
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the wedding cake/photography/planning/dress/tuxedo lobby is too big...




seriously? are you seriously asking why the Government gives special treatment to any class of people(s) ?
Yes, I'm asking. Why shouldn't I ask?
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Old May 31st, 2012, 05:49 AM   #19
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Yes, I'm asking. Why shouldn't I ask?
the left, and left leaning moderates generally don't question why Government should be involved in meaningless private matters... usually they are all gung ho for more of it.


and I know you're smart enough to know that our elected "representatives' pander to certain demographics in order to attract large swathes of voters - for the same reason that large, easily identified groups of voters have paid whores called "lobbyists" that attempt to exert their influence on those same supposed "representatives".
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Old June 7th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #20
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Bruce, if you keep trying to impose logic on this world you are going to give yourself a stroke.


IMHO, it's become more of an 'It's always been this way' type of thing than any sort of plan.
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