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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:54 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I don't think it will be that easy. Homosexuality is a big issue for many of the "religous" in our country and, unlike interracial marriage, there is a large amount of verses in thier holy scriptures to back up that feeling. I guess I might look back and say "what was the big deal with not changing it from marriage to <insert name here>?"
While this may be more of a religion-related issue than interracial marriage, I think this is really a generational thing, as was interracial marriage. I believe that in our culture, each successive generation has a tendency to shrug off some level of bias or prejudice carried by the prior generation. Look at the approval of interracial marriage over time:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/re...marriages.aspx)

As you can see, approval of interracial marriage has only been the majority stance for the last 16 years or so. Now look at approval of gay marriage:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/fi...-marriage.aspx)

And to my point that this is as much a generational movement as a shift of personal viewpoints, you can see from the first link that while overall 86% of respondents approve of interracial marriages, only 66% of those 65 and older approve of them (while 97% of 18 to 29-year-olds do). Similarly, with same-sex marriage, you'll see from the second link that while 53% overall approve, only 39% of those 55 and up approve (whereas 70% of 18 to 34-year-olds approve).

Seems pretty clear to me that the gay marriage debate -very- closely mirrors the interracial marriage issue in many regards - it's just about 20 years behind.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:56 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
As stated earlier, I see two separate issues year.
1) Defining the term “marriage”.
And more importantly:
2) Should 2 people of the same sex who want to make a lifelong commitment to each other be treated the same as 2 people of opposite sexes who want to make a lifelong commitment to each other.
Arguing over #1 just prevents discussing #2.
You are spot on with this Brewmenn.

I'd like to debate point 2 with you but it wouldn't last long. You'd ask the question, I'd say yes, you'd agree, the debate would be over. Although I guess we could talk about how the government should treat those two committed adults and whether that is a proper roll for government and at what level of government that should happen.

Maybe you should start a new thread and ban all talk of religion and God.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 01:40 PM   #363
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You are spot on with this Brewmenn.

I'd like to debate point 2 with you but it wouldn't last long. You'd ask the question, I'd say yes, you'd agree, the debate would be over. Although I guess we could talk about how the government should treat those two committed adults and whether that is a proper roll for government and at what level of government that should happen.

Maybe you should start a new thread and ban all talk of religion and God.
Other than religious opposition is there any other reasons why this is even an issue?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 01:57 PM   #364
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Other than religious opposition is there any other reasons why this is even an issue?
Only that for thousands of years all societies, even those without religion have deemed a union between a man and a woman as something special. Look at all the tribes from remote areas that don't even know about God or Jesus that celebrate a union. (what we call marriage) Now, per your chart, only in the last few years of civilization has this had a shift. So, is the "new" generation all that smart that they see something that no one anywhere on earth regardless of culture has seen? hmmmm........
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:01 PM   #365
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Only that for thousands of years all societies, even those without religion have deemed a union between a man and a woman as something special. Look at all the tribes from remote areas that don't even know about God or Jesus that celebrate a union. (what we call marriage) Now, per your chart, only in the last few years of civilization has this had a shift. So, is the "new" generation all that smart that they see something that no one anywhere on earth regardless of culture has seen? hmmmm........
How do you know that there are not gay unions in tribes that don't have a christian faith, or other "religion" as you put it?

Most of them do have some sort of god, look at the civilizations like the maya and the inca, they had ceremonies and sacrificial gatherings and prayed or worshipped to the gods of sun, water, winds, etc. I'd imagine some of thse remote tribes are very similar.

Now, one could argue they reproduce simply to breed/continue on their tribes tradition and way of life, but who is to say they don't also have homosexuality amongst them?

I thought same sex marriage meant once you were married you had the same old sex the rest of your life.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:05 PM   #366
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Well, in all my years, which you guys enjoy picking on, I have never watched National Geographic and seen a celebration of 2 guys getting hitched or seen pics of 2 guys holding hands.

It's a fair arguement but it takes away the "only Christians have a problem" scenario.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:32 PM   #367
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I haven't seen it either, but I've also only seen one gay couple with a kid in all my years. Not as many years as you, but I've seen a lot more people here in america then I have seen national geographic tribe documentaries/pics......in fact, I've not really seen a whole lot of gay anything as far as an actual gay couple goes. I know a few gay people, I can pick a gay out of a line up, but I don't encounter it all that often in the civilized world either.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:39 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
While this may be more of a religion-related issue than interracial marriage, I think this is really a generational thing, as was interracial marriage. I believe that in our culture, each successive generation has a tendency to shrug off some level of bias or prejudice carried by the prior generation. Look at the approval of interracial marriage over time:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/re...marriages.aspx)

As you can see, approval of interracial marriage has only been the majority stance for the last 16 years or so. Now look at approval of gay marriage:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/fi...-marriage.aspx)

And to my point that this is as much a generational movement as a shift of personal viewpoints, you can see from the first link that while overall 86% of respondents approve of interracial marriages, only 66% of those 65 and older approve of them (while 97% of 18 to 29-year-olds do). Similarly, with same-sex marriage, you'll see from the second link that while 53% overall approve, only 39% of those 55 and up approve (whereas 70% of 18 to 34-year-olds approve).

Seems pretty clear to me that the gay marriage debate -very- closely mirrors the interracial marriage issue in many regards - it's just about 20 years behind.
What I see is 20+ years of political correctness run a muck and a beat down on values by hippy liberals.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 03:56 PM   #369
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We have always had gay people in society, they decided not to celebrate it as they do now. They saw it as wrong in the eyes the the general population and only now as God is being pushed out of society they see it ok to be openly gay. With no feeling of conviction.

No God No Light, Know God Know Light.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 04:49 PM   #370
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This guy is considered a bigot because he speaks out against homosexual marriage. As the people we have spoken out about this issue. He tells how Canada is being pushed into this.

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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:04 PM   #371
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We have always had gay people in society, they decided not to celebrate it as they do now. They saw it as wrong in the eyes the the general population and only now as God is being pushed out of society they see it ok to be openly gay. With no feeling of conviction.

No God No Light, Know God Know Light.
Outside of the gay pride parades how are gays celebrating it? Most seem to live normal lives, the only difference being the genitals of their partner match their own. You really think all gays walk around in ass-less chaps carrying rainbow flags don't you?

You still haven't addressed why you care so much about what other people do? You believe in heaven and are confident that you'll get there but what if others think it's nonsense? How does that give you any right to dictate what they do? This is an issue of personal freedom and nothing else as far as I'm concerned.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:13 PM   #372
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And according to Merriam-Webster, your evangelical buddy, Bradley Dean is a bigot.

Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:14 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
While this may be more of a religion-related issue than interracial marriage, I think this is really a generational thing, as was interracial marriage. I believe that in our culture, each successive generation has a tendency to shrug off some level of bias or prejudice carried by the prior generation. Look at the approval of interracial marriage over time:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/149390/re...marriages.aspx)

As you can see, approval of interracial marriage has only been the majority stance for the last 16 years or so. Now look at approval of gay marriage:


(source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/fi...-marriage.aspx)

And to my point that this is as much a generational movement as a shift of personal viewpoints, you can see from the first link that while overall 86% of respondents approve of interracial marriages, only 66% of those 65 and older approve of them (while 97% of 18 to 29-year-olds do). Similarly, with same-sex marriage, you'll see from the second link that while 53% overall approve, only 39% of those 55 and up approve (whereas 70% of 18 to 34-year-olds approve).

Seems pretty clear to me that the gay marriage debate -very- closely mirrors the interracial marriage issue in many regards - it's just about 20 years behind.
Interesting artical. I found it funny that they specfically clarified that the percentage spike was only amount Independants and Democrats. Rebublicans did not change.


And as far as the pole goes, I'd have a hard time being specific. I think they should have the same rights as a married couple does, I just don't think it should be called Marriage by the Government, Gay or straight. I'd be more interested in those percentages. Of course, there is always the problem with Statistics.

I would also argue that a majority of Christians that are maybe a bit more Liberial thinking in this area (as I tend to think I am) would be comploetely fine with gay couples having the same rights as Straight couples do. They just don't want the word Marriage to be used.

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You are spot on with this Brewmenn.

I'd like to debate point 2 with you but it wouldn't last long. You'd ask the question, I'd say yes, you'd agree, the debate would be over. Although I guess we could talk about how the government should treat those two committed adults and whether that is a proper roll for government and at what level of government that should happen.

Maybe you should start a new thread and ban all talk of religion and God.
The only reason I brought any Religion into the mix was because people ignorantly spoke of why people of my Faith are against Homosexual marriage. I agree with #2. They shoudl have the same rights. Just not by the name marriage.

I'm also liking the idea of asking why the Government has a say in it as well.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:18 PM   #374
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Outside of the gay pride parades how are gays celebrating it? Most seem to live normal lives, the only difference being the genitals of their partner match their own. You really think all gays walk around in ass-less chaps carrying rainbow flags don't you?

You still haven't addressed why you care so much about what other people do? You believe in heaven and are confident that you'll get there but what if others think it's nonsense? How does that give you any right to dictate what they do? This is an issue of personal freedom and nothing else as far as I'm concerned.
I am sure that some gay people keep to themselves and as you say ,"live normal lives". I would have to disagree there is nothing normal about it.

As a Christian we are commanded to spread the word of God to all corners of the earth. By telling people what His word means. It clearly states that living in sin and not repenting from it will keep that person from God.
God is Light and to be separted from God means no light and only darkness.
Once a person experiences God and His love and what He has in store for you, you want no part of being separated from Him.
It is difficult to try and explain to somebody who does not know God. I do encourage you to look for Him in your thoughts and ask Him whatever you want to know. You may get an answer right away or later. You do need to do your part in pressing in and wanting it though.

He does give us freewill, but there are consquences for rejecting Him.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:20 PM   #375
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And according to Merriam-Webster, your evangelical buddy, Bradley Dean is a bigot.

Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance
And the gay community does not treat the Christian community with hatred and intolerence?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:21 PM   #376
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I am sure that some gay people keep to themselves and as you say ,"live normal lives". I would have to disagree there is nothing normal about it.

As a Christian we are commanded to spread the word of God to all corners of the earth. By telling people what His word means. It clearly states that living in sin and not repenting from it will keep that person from God.
God is Light and to be separted from God means no light and only darkness.
Once a person experiences God and His love and what He has in store for you, you want no part of being separated from Him.
It is difficult to try and explain to somebody who does not know God. I do encourage you to look for Him in your thoughts and ask Him whatever you want to know. You may get an answer right away or later. You do need to do your part in pressing in and wanting it though.

He does give us freewill, but there are consquences for rejecting Him.
So its your job to judge, not his?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:26 PM   #377
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So its your job to judge, not his?
By informing somebody they are going to be separted from God is judging?
I would think of it more like a warning, like, "hey don't go that way you could fall off that cliff", or "hey don't drink and drive you could kill yourself".
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:31 PM   #378
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By informing somebody they are going to be separted from God is judging?
I would think of it more like a warning, like, "hey don't go that way you could fall off that cliff", or "hey don't drink and drive you could kill yourself".
By giving a fukc about what they do you judge.

News flash, no one gives a flying fukc about what you believe. IF they want to hear it, by all means spew your heart out, but you telling gay people that they are living in sin, is about as welcome as me walking into your church, and pissing in the holy water. Hey, my book says if I do that you all will be saved from certain condemnation.

This light / dark metaphor is simply rhetoric hyperbole
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:31 PM   #379
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And the gay community does not treat the Christian community with hatred and intolerence?
I would say gay people do not treat Christians with intolerence at all. I'm fairly certain they just want to be left alone by you and all the others. The Christians trying to control what they do is certainly creating some unnecessary hostility though.

It's not your job to tell others what they need to do to get into heaven or see the light or live with god or whatever else you're trying to push on them. Unless two guys are screwing each other in your front yard or at your kid's school, leave them alone and live your life.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:41 PM   #380
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By giving a fukc about what they do you judge.

News flash, no one gives a flying fukc about what you believe. IF they want to hear it, by all means spew your heart out, but you telling gay people that they are living in sin, is about as welcome as me walking into your church, and pissing in the holy water. Hey, my book says if I do that you all will be saved from certain condemnation.

This light / dark metaphor is simply rhetoric hyperbole
Wow, haters will contiue to hate. If anybody is being intolerent it is you.
By you judging me because I have an opinion, ummmm.
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