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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #321
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Money troubles keeping you up?
Hey mooch, you think you can use that welding fume clogged brain of yours to add value to this discussion? Prolly not. I don't think I've ever seen any post from you that establish any sort of intellect. What can I say, niggas gonna nig.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #322
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hey mooch, you think you can use that welding fume clogged brain of yours to add value to this discussion? Prolly not. I don't think i've ever seen any post from you that establish any sort of intellect. What can i say, niggas gonna nig.
8=====d --- 0: don't care.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #323
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8=====d --- 0: don't care.
Snappy comeback! Now fire up those two brain cells and get in on this here debate!
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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:58 PM   #324
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Snappy comeback! Now fire up those two brain cells and get in on this here debate!
No. I don't debate you fags.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:06 AM   #325
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No. I don't debate you fags.
Wow, you've used on of the two insults in your arsenal of poor taste. You must have an opinion, state it and explain why. Are you getting a headache from trying to think of stuff about for/against gay marriage? If that's the case, you need to run your nigga ass back to the pub so you can dish our more unoriginal insults. Meanwhile, those of us in this thread that are trying to have an intellegent discussion about this subject will continue not to change each other's opinions.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:08 AM   #326
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Wow, you've used on of the two insults in your arsenal of poor taste. You must have an opinion, state it and explain why. Are you getting a headache from trying to think of stuff about for/against gay marriage? If that's the case, you need to run your nigga ass back to the pub so you can dish our more unoriginal insults. Meanwhile, those of us in this thread that are trying to have an intellegent discussion about this subject will continue not to change each other's opinions.
Didn't read, fuck your mother.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:19 AM   #327
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Didn't read, fuck your mother.
And there is insult #2 from Steveo's uber shallow pool of comebacks.

You got me so bad with that one. herp derp
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:23 AM   #328
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And there is insult #2 from Steveo's uber shallow pool of comebacks.

You got me so bad with that one. herp derp
What could I say to a Guy with the perfect life? Your awesome nuggets I am glad you would let me scrub your toilet.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:28 AM   #329
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What could I say to a Guy with the perfect life? Your awesome nuggets I am glad you would let me scrub your toilet.
I won't lie, I lol'd.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 01:39 AM   #330
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What could I say to a Guy with the perfect life? Your awesome nuggets I am glad you would let me scrub your toilet.
You sure can my moochy little buddy, right after a good ol' Upper Decker and a Sidecar. You will need permission from your little (oxymoron) cash cow I would assume. Tell her it's cool, I've just remodeled and everything is new so it will be easy to clean.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:45 PM   #331
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Pulling your replies out of the quoted text takes more time than I am willing to devote to future responses. If you have no interest in doing so, or if you are doing it simply because you are aware it annoys me, then refrain from responding to this post and Ill get the message.


I find it quite simple to repy to your posts the way I do it besides I have not debated you enough to know what annoys you and if the way I reply to your posts gets under your skin I'm sure disagreeing with you will really get your blood pressure up there


The difference is you are the one pushing your lifestyle on others. I, for one and like many others, would prefer you live your life and not judge me, or others, on theirs.

When I start inviting you to come to church on sundays and wednesdays, start my day off by reading scripture to you and wanting to include you in what I do on a daily basis then that is what I would call pushing my lifestyle on you. By me having an opinion on this topic is not pushing my lifestyle on you. Besdes I find it quite ironic that you would go out of your way to include "others" in your debate with me. I'm sure Others can defend themselves if they seem so willing to.


I grew up in a religious household. I have seen your side of the issue and I choose what I believe to be truth.

See thats the problem you grew up with religion. Which is different than growing up knowing Jesus and having a personal relationship with Him. See its not about what you believe Truth to be but the Truth according to Jesus and what He is about. By turning your focus on Him will take the focus off of you and what YOU think is to be truth.



Which can also be attributed to common decency, respect, liberty and freedom. All of which are not saved for Christians. Most religions teach "love they neighbor" and such. That being said, our founders wanted to make sure that the Government it was setting up would be as far removed from sponsoring a religion as possible. For example... Your bible teaches you its a sin to murder... I dont neet a bible to tell me that because I already know its wrong. You can argue that law comes from one of the ten commandments and as such is based in biblical theology. Ill argue its because it infringes on ones right to life. No bible needed. Thats the beauty of our framework, it allows everyone to live as they see fit.

You talk of common decency, the last time I saw what goes on at a gay pride parade is far from common decency. Let alone respect, they do not respect themselves let alone the people that are forced to be witness to the lewd acts preformed in public.
If our founding fathers were tring to set up a government so far removed from sponsering a religion why would they have sculptures of biblical figures in the court of law buildings? Why would they spend hours a day praying before proceding with daily business? Why would they print In God We Trust on our currency? Our country was steeped in Christianity. But allowing others to believe and practice thier own religion if they so desired to do so.


This isn't a left/right argument.

This country was founded on the idea that all men are free and granted the equal opportunity by whichever creator they believe in to pursue opportunity. Even if they do not believe in any creator past their own parents.



Freedom to choose indeed. Why don't you let the homosexuals choose if they want to get married? Because it infringes on your biblical definition of marriage? Again, not everyone subscribes to your value system.

Nobody is saying they cannot be together in a civil union of sort. They can live together, shop together, do whatever together. I have no problem with that.
You would be surprised by the amount of people that do subscribe to My value system.
The majority has banned gay marriage across the country but for some reason the gay community cannot get it that the people have voted and spoken on this subject. NO GAY MARRIAGE.


You neglected to address the passages I set out for you. I am not sure if that was on purpose or accident. Please give them another look. And Ill give you a hint.... The wording of our founding documents is in and of itself shear genius.



So now not only will I see him, I will acknowledge him....

You can not seem to accept nor even comprehend anyone not leading a life absent of Christ, can you?

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.





Why would I need to understand? I am not seeking to fulfill my life with Christ nor do I have any unanswered questions that I feel need answered right now. The only issue at hand is there is a sect of this country openly and willingly seeking to deny others the same rights and privileges they enjoy based on nothing but a biblical definition. Youre entire argument is "the bible says one man and one woman."

YUP

The other side of your coin you are flipping..." freedom of religion"... means everyone else also enjoys that freedom. Your God may be the all mighty in your scripts.. But your scripts are not the only ones out there.

They may not be, but my God is all knowing and all powerful.

Please drop the narrow minded view that you and what you believe are the only right answers.
You are having the narrow minded view because you will not even look at my side of the debate.
See your mind is like an umbrella, it only works when it's open.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:59 PM   #332
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I found this and thought of many of you defending homosexuality and thier idea of wanting marriage. It's rather amazing that more that 2000 years ago and the writer discribes to a T what people of today are thinking doing and acting like. I do believe there is plenty of Truth in the bible.

Romans 1:18,32

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.[i] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:40 PM   #333
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You are having the narrow minded view because you will not even look at my side of the debate.
See your mind is like an umbrella, it only works when it's open.
You did good till this statement. You yourself resorted to name calling. Lead by example.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:48 PM   #334
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Crap, now you're gonna make me work. I'll see what I can find.

EDIT: Found it!

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

There it is in God's own words. Why are Christians not advicating the murder of homosexuals? Because old Testiment? No, Jesus says ALL the old laws hold true. Religious cherry picking? I think so. I find it common practice that most *cough* all *cough* pick and choose from the Bible as they see fitting to their needs. Religious hypocricy drives me bonkers. I will say that I'm glad Christians don't go around killing every body the Bible tells them to. If they did, they would be called Muslims.
Leviticus 20:22-24

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Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
God didn't want any form of sin as part of his Holy people. That's why he wanted them to kill everybody that was 'unclean'.


Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20

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Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Which is what you use as 'evidence' that the old laws still apply, all of them. However, that last verse is a very large part of what Jesus was getting at. None of us can produce the Righteousness needed to get into heaven. That can only come from the sacrifice that Christ gave us.

The author or Hebrews says it pretty eloquently.

Hebrews 10:1-14

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The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll —
I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” —though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Now, the Author of Hebrews is obviously well versed in the Laws of Moses. Most biblical Scholars (the guys who do this for a living, are doctors in thier field, AKA Experts) agree that The author was a Jewish Religious leader of some sort. In 10, he specifically goes through the words that Christ and how they apply to the OT laws.

"For by one Sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" is also a key verse in our conversation here. In that last part of the chapter you quoted, that I quoted later, mentions God making those decrees to set his people apart. Christ did that with his sacrifice.
I hope this works for your answer. If you really think I'm "Cherry Picking" then I would encourage you to read All of Hebrews to get a context to what that Chapter is saying. You can also read all of Chapter 5 of Matthew. It's the "Bitch Slap" of Christ's Ministry to his believers.

Oh, and I forgot The two greatest commandments. From Matthew 22:36-40.

Quote:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments


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Originally Posted by steveo View Post
Money troubles keeping you up?
Nope, Friday I spent hanging out with a college Friend catching up, Saturday I had to leave for a 'mom to mom' sale with my wife at 5Am. Since I had been working for 10 days straight she deserved a day with me doing what she wanted. Sunday was church and then packing to move onto campus this week. So....no. Just busy.

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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:11 PM   #335
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You did good till this statement. You yourself resorted to name calling. Lead by example.
Not really name calling but being sacastic. I tend to get that way to get my point across, which is not the Christian thing to do and you are right in saying, "lead by example". I know what you mean.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:24 PM   #336
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I am no Christian but I always thought the basis of Christianity was to treat others with the same respect that you would like to be treated with. This thread has made it clear that it's actually to ignore critical thinking and logic and blindly follow something, even if it means treating other human beings as inferior. I've never been so confident that logical thinking and mutual respect for others is a far more fulfilling way of life for me. I realize this may read cynically, but I'm being honest.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:30 PM   #337
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Leviticus 20:22-24



God didn't want any form of sin as part of his Holy people. That's why he wanted them to kill everybody that was 'unclean'.


Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20



Which is what you use as 'evidence' that the old laws still apply, all of them. However, that last verse is a very large part of what Jesus was getting at. None of us can produce the Righteousness needed to get into heaven. That can only come from the sacrifice that Christ gave us.

The author or Hebrews says it pretty eloquently.

Hebrews 10:1-14



Now, the Author of Hebrews is obviously well versed in the Laws of Moses. Most biblical Scholars (the guys who do this for a living, are doctors in thier field, AKA Experts) agree that The author was a Jewish Religious leader of some sort. In 10, he specifically goes through the words that Christ and how they apply to the OT laws.

"For by one Sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" is also a key verse in our conversation here. In that last part of the chapter you quoted, that I quoted later, mentions God making those decrees to set his people apart. Christ did that with his sacrifice.
I hope this works for your answer. If you really think I'm "Cherry Picking" then I would encourage you to read All of Hebrews to get a context to what that Chapter is saying. You can also read all of Chapter 5 of Matthew. It's the "Bitch Slap" of Christ's Ministry to his believers.

Oh, and I forgot The two greatest commandments. From Matthew 22:36-40.







Nope, Friday I spent hanging out with a college Friend catching up, Saturday I had to leave for a 'mom to mom' sale with my wife at 5Am. Since I had been working for 10 days straight she deserved a day with me doing what she wanted. Sunday was church and then packing to move onto campus this week. So....no. Just busy.
So nice to see someone understands the bible instead of just taking bits and peices for their own use.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:39 PM   #338
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I am no Christian but I always thought the basis of Christianity was to treat others with the same respect that you would like to be treated with. This thread has made it clear that it's actually to ignore critical thinking and logic and blindly follow something, even if it means treating other human beings as inferior. I've never been so confident that logical thinking and mutual respect for others is a far more fulfilling way of life for me. I realize this may read cynically, but I'm being honest.
I'm sorry you don't understand how our faith works. I, for one, don't think of my self as any better as anybody else. I'm a sinner in need of a Savoir. The grace that has been given to me (as well as you, any homosexual person, anybody really) is what should motivate a Christian. Any 'higher standing' that I might think i have is not because of my own doing but because of God's work through Christ.

I'm also sorry that you think we're not Logical. Mostly because we don't agree on one thing that you think your absolutely right on. The truth is, Logic can be very relative. To you, through your experiences in life, Christianity/Religion/God are horrible things. That can be logical for you. For me, seeing the thigns I've seen, experiencing the things I have experienced, it just wouldn't be logical to think that there is not some force that we can't see controlling our world. I choose to believe that force Is the Christian God. I've tested this by asking God to show him self to me through his creation. He does it daily.

What you view as Logic is actually just perspective. Some of us are willing to see other people's perspective, some are not. In all honesty, I don't really care what happens with gay marriage. I care more about what will happen to those in this world that Have not repented from thier sin.

Also if you want to be mad at God because you don't think his ways are ok, that's fine. He can handle that. Because, from what I've seen in this thread, you don't think he operates the way you think he should.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:47 PM   #339
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I'm not mad at god or you or anyone. Although we disagree I wanted to point out that you do a great job of stating your position in a respectful manner. I'm on my phone so it's hard to counter anything else but wanted to point that out.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 10:57 PM   #340
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So nice to see someone understands the bible instead of just taking bits and peices for their own use. Like most Christians do.
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Give me the exact Verse that you're referencing and I'll get back to you. At the moment the Sermon on the mount comes to mind. Basically Jesus Lays down the smack down on his followers and says "you're not any better then them, you're all sinners"(paraphrased by Me). He also coins the phrased "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". As well as giving 'the two greatest commandments" which are summations of ALL the laws of the Jewish faith. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind and the second: Love your nieghbor as your self". Did I also mention I think it's the part where he says to Hate your enemies as your self too.

There are mulitple lists in Corinthians and various other books in the NT that lists sexual immorality as a sin. Some of them include Homosexuality and Adultery in it. It's been a while wince I really looked into this subject in depth. Maybe 5 or 5 years. It's starting to get a bit hazy.

Anywho, I have to go to bed because I have to build tipi's tomorrow and I barely got any sleep this weekend.
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Crap, now you're gonna make me work. I'll see what I can find.

EDIT: Found it!

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

There it is in God's own words. Why are Christians not advicating the murder of homosexuals? Because old Testiment? No, Jesus says ALL the old laws hold true. Religious cherry picking? I think so. I find it common practice that most *cough* all *cough* pick and choose from the Bible as they see fitting to their needs. Religious hypocricy drives me bonkers. I will say that I'm glad Christians don't go around killing every body the Bible tells them to. If they did, they would be called Muslims.
Still no answer why homosexuals are not being lined up and shot in the street. This is God's word and you Christians are not following it. Me believes it's the whole cherry picking thing I mentioned earlier. After this question is answered, you can school me on why I'm not going to Hell even though I didn't sell my daughters into slavery.
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