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Old May 18th, 2012, 11:22 PM   #261
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Muslims feel the need to impose their will on everybody too.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Scott2.0 View Post
If your argument is that the current language is too complicated, I would argue that creating a second legal definition of what is essentially the same thing, is adding complication to something that's pretty straightforward when you think about it. Not to mention the whole separate but equal issue.
Good point. I just think it would be best for both side of the debate if they named it something else. I woudl have no issue with having a civil union (with my wife) in the eyes of the Government and a marriage in the eyes of the church. I think that sentiment has been shared on both sides of the coin in this thread alone. It's a win win and then nobody looses rights or is denied them.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 07:39 AM   #263
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It's about redefining marriage. I think if they left the term marriage alone they may get somewhere. But as Scott mentioned would private organizations go alone with it to give them the bennies they so long to aquire.
Whos definition of marriage are you currently using?
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Old May 19th, 2012, 07:58 AM   #264
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Legislating your morality on others makes you no better than the cruelest dictator. You live your life according to how you feel you should live. Unless my choices affect your life directly, then piss off and leave everyone else alone.
Well put.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #265
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Whos definition of marriage are you currently using?
Christ and the church first used the term marriage and I was married in a church by my pastor. Which is recognized by God and man.
Needed to get a marriage licence from Oakland county.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #266
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Muslims feel the need to impose their will on everybody too.
Yes by the sword.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 08:50 AM   #267
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I'm just happy I'm in a some sex marriage.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 10:26 AM   #268
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The church and God were the first ones to call it a marriage. If anybody is over stepping boundries it would be the gay community.
If you want to understand where Christians are coming from and why we hold marriage between 1 man and 2 woman so strongly then you will need to ask a pastor of a church, "why"?
Nobody is tellin them they can't live together and do thier own thing.
Do you know that approx.80% of Americans call them selves Christians. There are more of us than you. Get used to it.
Another question for you, Are you gay? is that why you are so persistant on this subject?
Wait... they were the "first ones to call it a marriage"? Really? First of all, "marriage" is an English word. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. So the use of the word "MARRIAGE" is rather arbitrary.

So instead, let's assume you're referring to the CONCEPT of marriage. Well, again, that's not entirely true. Other ancient cultures had unions that we would consider a "marriage" as well, such as the Sumerians (predating the "marriages" of ancient Jews by several thousand years). Furthermore, even the biblical concept of "marriage" has changed greatly over time. Our modern definition of "marriage" is relatively far removed from what we see in the bible. Back then, a wife was considered chattel, and owned by her husband. Wives were literally purchased from their fathers. Furthermore, there are many different types of "marriages" referred to other than the nuclear marriage of a man and a wife.



So really, the "we had it first, and this is how it was" argument doesn't quite match up to reality.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 10:40 AM   #269
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Wait... they were the "first ones to call it a marriage"? Really? First of all, "marriage" is an English word. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. So the use of the word "MARRIAGE" is rather arbitrary.

So instead, let's assume you're referring to the CONCEPT of marriage. Well, again, that's not entirely true. Other ancient cultures had unions that we would consider a "marriage" as well, such as the Sumerians (predating the "marriages" of ancient Jews by several thousand years). Furthermore, even the biblical concept of "marriage" has changed greatly over time. Our modern definition of "marriage" is relatively far removed from what we see in the bible. Back then, a wife was considered chattel, and owned by her husband. Wives were literally purchased from their fathers. Furthermore, there are many different types of "marriages" referred to other than the nuclear marriage of a man and a wife.


So really, the "we had it first, and this is how it was" argument doesn't quite match up to reality.
No no no no no! Christians only pick and chose from the Bible what they see fit to believe or serves their interests.
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Old May 19th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #270
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Christ and the church first used the term marriage and I was married in a church by my pastor. Which is recognized by God and man.
Needed to get a marriage licence from Oakland county.
Whos definition of marriage are you currently using?

Christ and the Church? The Pastors? The state?

Whos definition of marriage are you basing your stance from?
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Old May 19th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #271
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Wait... they were the "first ones to call it a marriage"? Really? First of all, "marriage" is an English word. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. So the use of the word "MARRIAGE" is rather arbitrary.

I would think you may want to look up the term marriage in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. I'm sure it did not mean 2 men or 2 women.
So instead, let's assume you're referring to the CONCEPT of marriage. Well, again, that's not entirely true. Other ancient cultures had unions that we would consider a "marriage" as well, such as the Sumerians (predating the "marriages" of ancient Jews by several thousand years). Furthermore, even the biblical concept of "marriage" has changed greatly over time. Our modern definition of "marriage" is relatively far removed from what we see in the bible. Back then, a wife was considered chattel, and owned by her husband. Wives were literally purchased from their fathers. Furthermore, there are many different types of "marriages" referred to other than the nuclear marriage of a man and a wife.



So really, the "we had it first, and this is how it was" argument doesn't quite match up to reality.
Most of what you post is from the old testement and does not really apply. Christ came to abolish the law which the jews tried to live by and could not. Even God himself wanted man to have a woman as his wife not many wives. He did not approve of the many wives Soloman had.
1 Man 1 Woman = Marriage, according to Christains.
It seems so many want to change that to anybody who loves each other can and should be allowed to get married. For what reason I have no idea why.
Maybe they want to be normal like married people(1man1woman) and call it a marriage.

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No no no no no! Christians only pick and chose from the Bible what they see fit to believe or serves their interests.
Maybe some do, you should ask your wife if she picks and chooses what to beleive or best serves her interest.
If I do remember correctly your wife believes in God and goes to church to. The way you berate the Christians on this site I can only imagine how you treat your wife. She must have the patience of a Saint to put up with you and your BS.
I know I get tired of reading your personal attacks on Christians almost every time you post.
You seem like a smart guy but you let your inteligence drive your stupidity

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Whos definition of marriage are you currently using?

Christ and the Church? The Pastors? The state?

Whos definition of marriage are you basing your stance from?
God's of course. Which God tells us we need to follow and obey the governing authorities. So I guess it would be the state for issuing the license and the Pastor who married my wife and I.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #272
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Most of what you post is from the old testement and does not really apply. Christ came to abolish the law which the jews tried to live by and could not. Even God himself wanted man to have a woman as his wife not many wives. He did not approve of the many wives Soloman had.
1 Man 1 Woman = Marriage, according to Christains.
It seems so many want to change that to anybody who loves each other can and should be allowed to get married. For what reason I have no idea why.
Maybe they want to be normal like married people(1man1woman) and call it a marriage.
The OT was harsh... Interesting and convenient you can say its no longer relevant. However, we still have passages like this...

Quote:
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV, Romans 1:25-27)
Which is probably good considering this...

Quote:
Leviticus 20:13

13"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Are you still worried you are going to be persecuted for being a Christian?

You also keep saying "allowed" to get married. Who granted you the authority over anyone to dictate what they can and can not do?

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Maybe some do, you should ask your wife if she picks and chooses what to beleive or best serves her interest.
If I do remember correctly your wife believes in God and goes to church to. The way you berate the Christians on this site I can only imagine how you treat your wife. She must have the patience of a Saint to put up with you and your BS.
I know I get tired of reading your personal attacks on Christians almost every time you post.
You seem like a smart guy but you let your inteligence drive your stupidity
Wow.

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God's of course. Which God tells us we need to follow and obey the governing authorities. So I guess it would be the state for issuing the license and the Pastor who married my wife and I.
Not everyone believes in your God.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #273
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Hmmmmm.......
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Old May 20th, 2012, 09:51 AM   #274
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The OT was harsh... Interesting and convenient you can say its no longer relevant. However, we still have passages like this...

In this passage he talks about God's wrath on mankind. You should have used the whole passage. Romans 1:18-32 and not just cherry pick a paragraph. Reading the whole thing gives the reader an understanding of what it means. Basically I think it means that man is and has a depraved mind and God is giving them what they want to do and behave like.


Which is probably good considering this...

Old testiment, that is the law and does no longer apply.



Are you still worried you are going to be persecuted for being a Christian?

You also keep saying "allowed" to get married. Who granted you the authority over anyone to dictate what they can and can not do?

I am not worried about being persecuted. It does bother me but I am not going to let it get me down. I will stand up and defend my rights as I have that freedom to do so.



Wow.



Not everyone believes in your God.
Not everyone but more than you think.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 10:11 AM   #275
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I've been in well over 300 gay porn films but I'm not gay. The love and tenderness I've witnessed on the set is touching. I had a gay man whisper in my ear that he loved me (while pounding my rectum with his elephant slong), when I told him I'm not gay and want to marry a woman some day, he started to cry. He then pulled out and blew a giant load all over my feet. I tell you, the caring and tenderness of the gay community is remarkable.

All of my buddies from the gay porn days have died of AIDS but if they were alive, I would support their right to get married.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #276
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Leave the bible out of this. It was written by men and edited by men to serve men's purposes.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #277
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I've been in well over 300 gay porn films but I'm not gay. The love and tenderness I've witnessed on the set is touching. I had a gay man whisper in my ear that he loved me (while pounding my rectum with his elephant slong), when I told him I'm not gay and want to marry a woman some day, he started to cry. He then pulled out and blew a giant load all over my feet. I tell you, the caring and tenderness of the gay community is remarkable.

All of my buddies from the gay porn days have died of AIDS but if they were alive, I would support their right to get married.
I find these comments from you doing nothing but lowering my opinion of you. This forum is for discussions of religion and politics but yet I see many who resort to name calling and stupid bullshit when they have nothing better to say.

I don't agree with some of the arguments and debates here but I will not belittle someone for something they can discuss with intelligence. Blasting out stupidity does nothing for the discussion. For those that discuss anti-Christian beliefs with common sense, I find their opinions thought provoking and interesting. For those that discuss Christian beliefs with common sense, I find them the same. For those that spew bullshit just to get attention, I find them closer to my ignore list.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #278
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Wait... they were the "first ones to call it a marriage"? Really? First of all, "marriage" is an English word. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. So the use of the word "MARRIAGE" is rather arbitrary.

So instead, let's assume you're referring to the CONCEPT of marriage. Well, again, that's not entirely true. Other ancient cultures had unions that we would consider a "marriage" as well, such as the Sumerians (predating the "marriages" of ancient Jews by several thousand years). Furthermore, even the biblical concept of "marriage" has changed greatly over time. Our modern definition of "marriage" is relatively far removed from what we see in the bible. Back then, a wife was considered chattel, and owned by her husband. Wives were literally purchased from their fathers. Furthermore, there are many different types of "marriages" referred to other than the nuclear marriage of a man and a wife.

So really, the "we had it first, and this is how it was" argument doesn't quite match up to reality.

OK, let me give this a try. We're going on what I believe, So I'm goign to be clear that this is what I believe, and this is why I share, to an extent, what Aber is saying. You may not agree with it, but this is to try to give you guys and understand of where we come from.


The first being, Adam and Eve. That picture you posted makes a pretty good point. However, it misses the mark a bit. Adam and Eve were brought together BEFORE SIN. That means, According to Christian Belief, that they were still perfect, no sin, no imperfections. That is the reason it is looked at as THE example of what a marriage should be.

The other part of that Image chronicles the many many many marriages/Slaves/Concubines/ ETC. That has happened. A Majority of those are from the time before the law was given to the people and could be argued that those many transgressions could have been the reason for the law coming down. I mean, God smote the whole world with a flood because it was so evil.

The second part of my observation is this. The bible is, according to my faith, the written history of my faith. In that history there are countless examples of God using the least likely person to carry out his will. Moses was a drunk, for example. Basically, You don't have to have your stuff together to be used by God; and to take it a step further, God usually chooses the most unlikely people to perform his will.

Our history is also a recorded history of people. Imperfect people. Just because those people had more then one wife doesn't mean it was God ordained. That even accounts for those that he put into power like David, Solomon, and Saul. They were still humans who made mistakes and had struggles.

As far as the OT. It is still relevant. God did not want to give it to us, but we needed the law. We did not know how to love each other in our sinful nature. That is the reason for the law. The two, or three, examples you gave were perfect examples. I think at least one mentioned blood. Which is part of the Sacrificial part of the law. Any part of the law that required an offering to atone for sin is now fullfilled by Christ's Action on the cross. BUT. The law is still in effect. We just don't have to kill people or animals to atone for our sins.

And....Context Context Context. That image hints into the idea that it was wrong to treat women they way they did. Which, if you look at it from 4K years away, it seems wrong. But back then it was just how things were. You married someone's daughter to form a treaty with there country and usually traded children. That way, if you attacked them, you would loose a son or daughter.

Just a couple thoughts.


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Leave the bible out of this. It was written by men and edited by men to serve men's purposes.
Ok, so you're aware that we're trying to figure out why Christians (the people who believe the bible is the word of God) have an issue with Gay marriage. It would be pretty foolish to leave that out if you REALLY want to understand someone else's opinion or viewpoint.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #279
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I find these comments from you doing nothing but lowering my opinion of you. This forum is for discussions of religion and politics but yet I see many who resort to name calling and stupid bullshit when they have nothing better to say.

I don't agree with some of the arguments and debates here but I will not belittle someone for something they can discuss with intelligence. Blasting out stupidity does nothing for the discussion. For those that discuss anti-Christian beliefs with common sense, I find their opinions thought provoking and interesting. For those that discuss Christian beliefs with common sense, I find them the same. For those that spew bullshit just to get attention, I find them closer to my ignore list.
Then put me on ingnore your Highness. Geez, like I give a crap what you think of me. If you've been around these arguements any more than 30 seconds, you'd find the same old players twisting around biblical verses to push their agenda. I've tried to have an intellegent debate on this subject years ago but no intellegence was being used to argue the anti-gay marriage (as is the case today).

If you ever want a serious debat about a subject, I'll jump in and contribute. This thead can't be a serious debate because people in it think they are following the will of an invisable man who lives in the sky and they are using a book that is openly telling them to murder certain people (like the Koran). If I tried to use a Batman comic book to argue my point (another work of fiction with a make believe hero), I'd be laughed at.

Now, stop the nose bleed from sitting atop your high horse and carry on.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #280
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When are we as a society going to quit treating others as though they are second class citizens. Just because someone lives a lifestyle different from your own doesn't give you the right to discriminate against them. It's time we get past this nonsense and legalize gay marriage. I don't believe people actually take what they read in a book written by ideological men several millennia ago to be fact. Perhaps those who believe marriage should be for people like them should reflect on their own life. And focus on their own happiness. Then maybe they will stop trying to drag others down with them.

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