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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:03 AM   #21
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Okay, even slower. He did send troops along with the . Got it now asshole? He only continued what was already being done.

And slowly now, you are starting to irritate me. You like to twist the facts to fit your agenda. Plan on being a shyster one day perhaps?

Keep trying to talk down to me little boy and you might get on my bad side. You have little if any friends on here and mainly post to inflame. You know nothing about Vietnam and very little about the military.

You want my idea of how to end the war in Iraq? Turn it into a parking lot and start over. Terrorists should be executed immediately. Get the damn media out of the area and let the military do its job.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemanii
You want my idea of how to end the war in Iraq? Terrorists should be executed immediately. Get the damn media out of the area and let the military do its job.
The spin-it-how-you-want-it media is one of the things halting progress in Iraq... Our military can't strike and eliminate the problems when the media will sit there all day long and spin it so the American public will hate them for it... it's pathetic.

And before you start throwing out your usual slams against freeing Iraq Mike... ask yourself one question and seriously think about it..

Why do you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:15 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemanii
Okay, even slower. He did send troops along with the . Got it now asshole? He only continued what was already being done.

And slowly now, you are starting to irritate me. You like to twist the facts to fit your agenda. Plan on being a shyster one day perhaps?

Keep trying to talk down to me little boy and you might get on my bad side. You have little if any friends on here and mainly post to inflame. You know nothing about Vietnam and very little about the military.

You want my idea of how to end the war in Iraq? Turn it into a parking lot and start over. Terrorists should be executed immediately. Get the damn media out of the area and let the military do its job.
ok, so you agree that Johnson, a democrat, sent troops to Vietnam. ok. that's all i wanted. That was the point i was trying to make.

P.s. i don't care if i irritate you or get on your bad side, if that's how you want to be over a stupid history/political argument, be my guest.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Stocker
The spin-it-how-you-want-it media is one of the things halting progress in Iraq... Our military can't strike and eliminate the problems when the media will sit there all day long and spin it so the American public will hate them for it... it's pathetic.

And before you start throwing out your usual slams against freeing Iraq Mike... ask yourself one question and seriously think about it..

Why do you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?
So the reason that we aren't done yet in Iraq is because the military is scared of Keith Olbermann and Wolf Blitzer...ok.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mikesova
So the reason that we aren't done yet in Iraq is because the military is scared of Keith Olbermann and Wolf Blitzer...ok.

Not the military... think higher up...

The military doesn't do whatever the hell it wants. They have to answer to congress and the administration... aka politicians...

Do you think politicians want to go on an huge asskicking parade and end this nonsense when they know the media is going to spin it into a "mass civilian slaughter" to make them all look bad and threaten their chances of reelection?

And you never answered my question...
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:19 AM   #26
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So do you agree that Eisenhower, a republican sent troops to Vietnam first?
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:24 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Icemanii
So do you agree that Eisenhower, a republican sent troops to Vietnam first?
Yes, but it was never an issue who sent troops first and it's not like Johnson was just following along with the Republican lead, he escalated by sending way more.

Again, though, why are you making sure that Republicans get "credit" for starting Vietnam. It's not a good thing. To each his own.

quick poll to the reading this:
"Are you proud of America's involvement in the Vietnam War and are you glad that your party who got us involved initially?"

Last edited by mikesova; October 11th, 2006 at 11:29 AM.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:45 AM   #28
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Now I'm really curious... I asked you two times now and you have refused to answer the question..


What makes you, MikeSova, think that you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Stocker
Now I'm really curious... I asked you two times now and you have refused to answer the question..


What makes you, MikeSova, think that you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?

'cause I'm white.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Stan
'cause I'm white.


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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:53 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Stocker
Now I'm really curious... I asked you two times now and you have refused to answer the question..


What makes you, MikeSova, think that you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?

Well, it's a stupid question, because I don't think I deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people. I don't deserve anything more than any other individual on the planet. What is your definition of freedom, though?
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Stocker
Now I'm really curious... I asked you two times now and you have refused to answer the question..


What makes you, MikeSova, think that you deserve freedom more than the Iraqi people?
I'll tell you exactly why. Because we are willing to fight for it. We fight for freedom, that is why we are free men now.

Its the same reason that we fight to free others. However, they will need to begin fighting for themselves at some point.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 11:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by 87'YJ
I'll tell you exactly why. Because we are willing to fight for it. We fight for freedom, that is why we are free men now.

Its the same reason that we fight to free others. However, they will need to begin fighting for themselves at some point.

Is that why there are thousands of Iraqi's fighting for their freedom in the Iraqi National Guard? An opportunity that was never available to them before we ousted the asshole?

They Iraqi people are fighting for themselves more than the media leads you to believe. They are planning and executing their own missions to help stabilize the country as best as they can.

For every one Iraqi that hates us there at 10 more that love us... too bad it's always the one that gets the internation air time..
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Old October 11th, 2006, 12:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesova
Yes, but it was never an issue who sent troops first and it's not like Johnson was just following along with the Republican lead, he escalated by sending way more.

Again, though, why are you making sure that Republicans get "credit" for starting Vietnam. It's not a good thing. To each his own.

quick poll to the reading this:
"Are you proud of America's involvement in the Vietnam War and are you glad that your party who got us involved initially?"

not particulary proud like it is a symbol for all i hold dear about america. It was a time of proxy wars, thats the way we fought USSR AND communism was through proxy wars. I am proud we didnt cut and run. Wasnt the greatest war or greatest outcome. I am definately not ashamed of it.

the orginal statement that started this post reminds me of a famous quote by Mark Twain, "The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" .... in regard to america dieing

we were founded by a war. War isnt pretty but its not inhernently bad from every drirection. Theres a hundred lame armed conflicts going on at any one moment in the world some over pretty lame stuff. I consider radical islam to be the greatest threat to freedom, democracy and capitalism in the world. Atleast some communist countries would still let me practice my own relgion ... and i fucking hate the hypocracy of the commies. But they arent nearly as bad as the radical muslims. I dont under stand how any american can not support the US (and for that matter any nation that isnt governed BY RADICAL MUSLIMS) joining the rest of the non radical muslim nations and together, hunting down and exterminating every single last radical muslim. Totally head in the sand clueless. Every radical muslim has declared war on the whole world. Get a clue. We didnt start a war in the middle east, they started it about 35 years ago or more and we are just now getting upset engouh to do something about it!

Last edited by jamiesann; October 11th, 2006 at 12:27 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 12:39 PM   #35
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Did you guys know that some people just joined up for Vietnam because others they were friends with got drafted so they said . . . eh, why not go over there maybe it could be fun and we can atleast all be together . . . I guess this is like the guys that join up now knowing that we are going to be stuck there for a while. Well atleast they are allowed to now comment on the war because they were in the military, you better join up Sova


So whoa . . why sould someone need to point out that their political party was the first to send troops over to 'nam? You miss alot on this board when you take a nap. Did anyone see how upset Gman got because the front desk person at the hotel he wanted to stay at didn't speak english? :tonka:

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Old October 12th, 2006, 08:55 AM   #36
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Super Stocker, do you think that the people of Iraq like this:

Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000

By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 11, 2006; A12

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

The estimate, produced by interviewing residents during a random sampling of households throughout the country, is far higher than ones produced by other groups, including Iraq's government.

It is more than 20 times the estimate of 30,000 civilian deaths that President Bush gave in a speech in December. It is more than 10 times the estimate of roughly 50,000 civilian deaths made by the British-based Iraq Body Count research group.

The surveyors said they found a steady increase in mortality since the invasion, with a steeper rise in the last year that appears to reflect a worsening of violence as reported by the U.S. military, the news media and civilian groups. In the year ending in June, the team calculated Iraq's mortality rate to be roughly four times what it was the year before the war.

Of the total 655,000 estimated "excess deaths," 601,000 resulted from violence and the rest from disease and other causes, according to the study. This is about 500 unexpected violent deaths per day throughout the country.

The survey was done by Iraqi physicians and overseen by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The findings are being published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet.

The same group in 2004 published an estimate of roughly 100,000 deaths in the first 18 months after the invasion. That figure was much higher than expected, and was controversial. The new study estimates that about 500,000 more Iraqis, both civilian and military, have died since then -- a finding likely to be equally controversial.

Both this and the earlier study are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods. The technique, called "cluster sampling," is used to estimate mortality in famines and after natural disasters.

While acknowledging that the estimate is large, the researchers believe it is sound for numerous reasons. The recent survey got the same estimate for immediate post-invasion deaths as the early survey, which gives the researchers confidence in the methods. The great majority of deaths were also substantiated by death certificates.

"We're very confident with the results," said Gilbert Burnham, a Johns Hopkins physician and epidemiologist.

A Defense Department spokesman did not comment directly on the estimate.

"The Department of Defense always regrets the loss of any innocent life in Iraq or anywhere else," said Lt. Col. Mark Ballesteros. "The coalition takes enormous precautions to prevent civilian deaths and injuries."

He added that "it would be difficult for the U.S. to precisely determine the number of civilian deaths in Iraq as a result of insurgent activity. The Iraqi Ministry of Health would be in a better position, with all of its records, to provide more accurate information on deaths in Iraq."

Ronald Waldman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University who worked at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for many years, called the survey method "tried and true," and added that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have."

This viewed was echoed by Sarah Leah Whitson, an official of Human Rights Watch in New York, who said, "We have no reason to question the findings or the accuracy" of the survey.

"I expect that people will be surprised by these figures," she said. "I think it is very important that, rather than questioning them, people realize there is very, very little reliable data coming out of Iraq."

The survey was conducted between May 20 and July 10 by eight Iraqi physicians organized through Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. They visited 1,849 randomly selected households that had an average of seven members each. One person in each household was asked about deaths in the 14 months before the invasion and in the period after.

The interviewers asked for death certificates 87 percent of the time; when they did, more than 90 percent of households produced certificates.

According to the survey results, Iraq's mortality rate in the year before the invasion was 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people; in the post-invasion period it was 13.3 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The difference between these rates was used to calculate "excess deaths."

Of the 629 deaths reported, 87 percent occurred after the invasion. A little more than 75 percent of the dead were men, with a greater male preponderance after the invasion. For violent post-invasion deaths, the male-to-female ratio was 10-to-1, with most victims between 15 and 44 years old.

Gunshot wounds caused 56 percent of violent deaths, with car bombs and other explosions causing 14 percent, according to the survey results. Of the violent deaths that occurred after the invasion, 31 percent were caused by coalition forces or airstrikes, the respondents said.

Burnham said that the estimate of Iraq's pre-invasion death rate -- 5.5 deaths per 1,000 people -- found in both of the Hopkins surveys was roughly the same estimate used by the CIA and the U.S. Census Bureau. He said he believes that attests to the accuracy of his team's results.

He thinks further evidence of the survey's robustness is that the steepness of the upward trend it found in excess deaths in the last two years is roughly the same tendency found by other groups -- even though the actual numbers differ greatly.

An independent group of researchers and biostatisticians based in England produces the Iraq Body Count. It estimates that there have been 44,000 to 49,000 civilian deaths since the invasion. An Iraqi nongovernmental organization estimated 128,000 deaths between the invasion and July 2005.

The survey cost about $50,000 and was paid for by Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for International Studies.

Staff researcher Madonna Lebling contributed to this report.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...001442_pf.html

To the people that think that the over 3,000 U.S. troops we've lost, isn't a "big deal", what about this? Since you all seem to be very pro-Iraq "freedom", is it worth the cost of lives? Let's see 3 years =600,000, hmm, maybe if we're in there another couple years we can make it a million.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 08:57 AM   #37
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oh shoot, that is just more of that silly reporting that is slowing our military down, without it, we might get to the 1 million mark faster.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 09:38 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by mikesova
oh shoot, that is just more of that silly reporting that is slowing our military down, without it, we might get to the 1 million mark faster.

Good god, please don't tease me like that.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 09:44 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
Good god, please don't tease me like that.
Ive been around the world
Ive known a lot of girls
Livin and lovin
Its hard to keep them all in line
Ive seen a lot of sights
Many crazy nights
Cruisin and boozin
Its a wonder that Im still alive

Never wasted any time
Never missed a beat
Total satisfaction
Always guaranteed

Tease me
Please me
No one needs to know
Tease me
Please me
Before I have to go

Spead the world around
The boys are back in town
Reelin and rockin
Were rollin with it win or lose
The girls are dressed to kill
Lookin for a thrill
Slidin and glidin
Sometimes they make it hard to choose

I never wasted any time
Never missed a beat
Total satisfaction
Always guaranteed

Tease me
Please me
No one needs to know
Tease me
Please me
Before I have to go
Tease me
Please me
Well take it nice and slow
Tease me
Please me
Just let the feeling grow
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Old October 12th, 2006, 10:58 AM   #40
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cliff notes: war kills a lot of people. Brilliant work.

Here's some real words of inspiration....

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

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