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Old March 23rd, 2012, 04:54 AM   #61
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Well, sort of - and I'm not the guy to give you a 100% "yes or no" answer. Car's "emissions performance" is rated with a series of standardized tests that have been developed starting back in the early seventies. They have been updated and revised, but still don't reflect everyone's usage - so depending on the driver, these cars could perform quite differently than the emission standards they certify to.

Clear as mud? I also have no idea what secondary pollutants are created while refining these fuels - so I can't speak to that.
All my faith in you just went out the window..........
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 06:08 AM   #62
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What about returning to the external combustion engine?

How about a diesel/steam hybrid?
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 06:15 AM   #63
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How about a diesel/steam hybrid?
Problem I see with steam is some people have trouble checking tire pressure, let alone checking a blow-off valve that needs to be well maintained and corrosion free is a salt laden winter commute.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 06:58 AM   #64
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My theory is to use the wasted energy that goes out the exhaust to heat water and create steam. Maybe take a normal diesel engine, only use some of the cylinders for fuel, and use the others for steam.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 07:17 AM   #65
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All my faith in you just went out the window..........
Why?

Because I don't have the time to research the specific pollutant output of oil refineries, or if there is a different ratio of pollutants created during different phases of distillation?

Shit, while we're on the topic - if roughly 67% of crude is converted into gasoline, what ratio of energy input is needed to distill it vs. the remaining stock that diesel comes from?

Further yet, where does that energy come from? Coal fired plants? Internal-combustion driven generators? Combustion of a % of the product?


I'd much rather admit ignorance on a topic than try to bullshit you folks on things I don't know enough about.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 08:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by GearDrive View Post
How about a diesel/steam hybrid?
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Originally Posted by Coyote Red View Post
Problem I see with steam is some people have trouble checking tire pressure, let alone checking a blow-off valve that needs to be well maintained and corrosion free is a salt laden winter commute.
Sterling Engine.

Dean Kamen was (is?) working on it, so there might be something to it.

http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-...tirling-461108

http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2009/0...ng-engine.html

Doesn't seem to be much after 2009 though.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 08:52 AM   #67
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Oh, as a bonus, the Stirling Engine is somewhat meb alls shaped

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Old March 23rd, 2012, 10:05 AM   #68
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Sterling engines do not build a high pressure correct? So they don't need a blow off valve. When I though of steam I was thinking of something like a steam locomotive that builds hundreds of pounds of pressure.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 11:19 AM   #69
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The Stirling is a temperature differential engine. I built one as a science fair project in junior high ( http://www.scientificsonline.com/sim...FQVoKgod4x7v5Q )

That was more of a demo of the principle, I've read online of some who have built engines capable of running small generators. I'd love to do something like that if I had the time.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 11:19 AM   #70
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My theory is to use the wasted energy that goes out the exhaust to heat water and create steam. Maybe take a normal diesel engine, only use some of the cylinders for fuel, and use the others for steam.
That's not a bad idea - and might be able to be researched farther, however, there are a few problems with your example - I think. Doesn't mean it's bad, but there are some inherent problems to be dealt with. The biggest hurdle is a turbocharger - a lot of the exhaust energy goes into compressing the air - so you see a pretty big temperature drop across the exhaust turbine.

Even so, let's look at a few calculations - because I'm interested to know how feasible your idea is:

We start with defining a few "givens":

First, add 273.15 to all the temperatures to make the units work out.

Texh = Temp of exhaust = 773K (400C)
Specific heat of exhaust @773K (assume "air" to make things easier) = 1.08
Specific heat of water @ 295K (about 22C, or room temp) = Energy required to raise 1 kg of water by 1C = 4184J (joules)
Assume we have 1 kilogram of water to turn into steam. 1 kg of water = 1 liter of water; I don't know what an acceptable flow would be to generate steam, though. 1kg/s or 1L/s sounds like too much. I'm going to go with 10cc/second = 10mL/second = 10 grams/second

We're also going to assume 100% conversion efficiency, to keep the "guestimate" easy.

So, to get steam, we want to raise the temperature of that water above 373.15K (100C / 212F) - OR - we need to raise that 1 liter of water 78.15C. I'll round that to 80.
Looking to thermodynamics, we know the energy required to do this can be defined as: "Q" = mass * specific heat * the change in temperature, or in our case: (0.01Kg)(4.184)(80) = 3.35kJ to raise the water to it's boiling point.

Now, we have to change that water to steam, which requires roughly 2250kJ/kg of water. Since we have 1 kg of water, the result is we would need an additional 2250 kJ of energy. If we base this on a rate of 0.01 kg of water turned to steam every second, we can turn this into WATTS - so it is a bit more familiar. Adding the 3.35kJ/s + the (2250kJ/s * 0.01) together = 25.85 kJ/s or about 26 kW


How much energy is available from the exhaust?
Assuming 100% heat exchanger efficiency (Exhaust leaving the heat exchanger = the temperature of steam), and the average exhaust flow is 0.00083 kg/second (and the equation from above):
"Q" = (0.00083)(1.08)(300) == 0.27 kJ/s, or about 1/4 Watt





Even in a perfect world, we're 25 3/4 Watts short.

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Old March 23rd, 2012, 11:23 AM   #71
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Stirlings work best with large heat sinks to establish a significant temperature differential; not saying it is impossible - just improbable - as a propulsion source for personal transportation.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 11:33 AM   #72
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Stirlings work best with large heat sinks to establish a significant temperature differential; not saying it is impossible - just improbable - as a propulsion source for personal transportation.
I remember reading somewhere that a stirling engine powerful enough to run a car directly would be larger than the car... but to run a generator to charge batteries in an electric car was what Dean Kamen was working on. He seemed to have a working prototype- and I have no reason to doubt this, he did invent the Segway- but I can't find anything on it newer than 2009. Not even a clipping about it being a failure.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 11:37 AM   #73
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More DeKa stuff:

http://www.gizmag.com/dean-kamen-seg...scooter/12096/

http://hackaday.com/2008/11/09/dean-...ng-engine-car/
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 12:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BlooMule View Post
I remember reading somewhere that a stirling engine powerful enough to run a car directly would be larger than the car... but to run a generator to charge batteries in an electric car was what Dean Kamen was working on. He seemed to have a working prototype- and I have no reason to doubt this, he did invent the Segway- but I can't find anything on it newer than 2009. Not even a clipping about it being a failure.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 12:31 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
That's not a bad idea - and might be able to be researched farther, however, there are a few problems with your example - I think. Doesn't mean it's bad, but there are some inherent problems to be dealt with. The biggest hurdle is a turbocharger - a lot of the exhaust energy goes into compressing the air - so you see a pretty big temperature drop across the exhaust turbine.

Even so, let's look at a few calculations - because I'm interested to know how feasible your idea is:

We start with defining a few "givens":

First, add 273.15 to all the temperatures to make the units work out.

Texh = Temp of exhaust = 773K (400C)
Specific heat of exhaust @773K (assume "air" to make things easier) = 1.08
Specific heat of water @ 295K (about 22C, or room temp) = Energy required to raise 1 kg of water by 1C = 4184J (joules)
Assume we have 1 kilogram of water to turn into steam. 1 kg of water = 1 liter of water; I don't know what an acceptable flow would be to generate steam, though. 1kg/s or 1L/s sounds like too much. I'm going to go with 10cc/second = 10mL/second = 10 grams/second

We're also going to assume 100% conversion efficiency, to keep the "guestimate" easy.

So, to get steam, we want to raise the temperature of that water above 373.15K (100C / 212F) - OR - we need to raise that 1 liter of water 78.15C. I'll round that to 80.
Looking to thermodynamics, we know the energy required to do this can be defined as: "Q" = mass * specific heat * the change in temperature, or in our case: (0.01Kg)(4.184)(80) = 3.35kJ to raise the water to it's boiling point.

Now, we have to change that water to steam, which requires roughly 2250kJ/kg of water. Since we have 1 kg of water, the result is we would need an additional 2250 kJ of energy. If we base this on a rate of 0.01 kg of water turned to steam every second, we can turn this into WATTS - so it is a bit more familiar. Adding the 3.35kJ/s + the (2250kJ/s * 0.01) together = 25.85 kJ/s or about 26 kW


How much energy is available from the exhaust?
Assuming 100% heat exchanger efficiency (Exhaust leaving the heat exchanger = the temperature of steam), and the average exhaust flow is 0.00083 kg/second (and the equation from above):
"Q" = (0.00083)(1.08)(300) == 0.27 kJ/s, or about 1/4 Watt





Even in a perfect world, we're 25 3/4 Watts short.

How about using the waste of energy in the cooling system to raise the temp of water to 200 degrees? Then using an injector type nozzle to spray a fine mist over a surface heated by the exhaust before the turbo.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:09 PM   #76
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The breaking point is really the energy needed to turn the water into steam; it's kind of how you can boil a pot of water on the stove in 5 minutes, but it will have to boil for hours as there is enough energy for minimal steam generation.

Cooling the exhaust pre-turbo would kill the efficiency of your compressor, as it needs the heat to help spin the turbine. The "fine mist" you propose would not generate enough steam to do any good. What really kills the idea is the amount of energy it takes to vaporize that water into steam - it's about 8x higher than just heating the water to boil.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:20 PM   #77
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Check this out from Cummins

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/g...e/viewall.html
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:49 PM   #78
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That is fawking cool - but I want to point out a few things:

1. They're quoting AVL, which is trying to "sell" the technology.
2. Shame on me for not considering a 15L displacement and running high loads (I based energy flows on the EPA-75 cycle).
3. The size of the turbine is HUGE.

But, it certainly looks possible by that article. I have to stop thinking about only considering passenger-vehicles.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 02:03 PM   #79
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Looking at this makes me wonder if there is much benefit to this system at all. I'll be watching this close.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 02:16 PM   #80
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Looking at this makes me wonder if there is much benefit to this system at all. I'll be watching this close.
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