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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #1
Paperman
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Who is right? Gun in school

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) -- A West Michigan man says his rights were violated when he was confronted after wearing a holstered pistol while voting at an elementary school.

Nicholas Looman tells The Grand Rapids Press (http://bit.ly/AkrWVR ) he was stopped Tuesday in Aberdeen Elementary by a staff member after casting his ballot. He later was told to leave.

Grand Rapids Public Schools spokesman John Helmholdt said the state school code prohibits weapons on school property. He says the No. 1 issue is school safety and "common sense tells you don't bring a gun into a school."

Looman says he regularly carries a gun openly as he did Tuesday and he believes he's allowed to do so while on school property to vote.

Looman says he wants an apology and for officials to know gun laws.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:39 AM   #2
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I can see where this is headed.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:43 AM   #3
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Schools are off limits for guns. Period.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:51 AM   #4
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I could see it either way. I guess I am in support of the law, for or against having a gun in school.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:55 AM   #5
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how is this even a question? why the hell do you need to bring a gun into the school to vote? I am pretty sure even uncle ted would have to say this guy is pretty stupid for doing this..

as a side note I bet you never see a head line like this during a democratic primary vote
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:06 AM   #6
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Schools are a PFZ. Law doesn't state whether or not classes have to be in session.

http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123...0947--,00.html

Quote:
Pistol Free AreasIndividuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:
  • Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
  • Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
  • Sports arena or stadium
  • A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
  • Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
  • An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
  • A hospital
  • A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
  • A Casino

"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above.


A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:
  • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
  • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
  • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked
Furthermore, effective March 29, 2001, per Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court:
  • "Weapons are not permitted in any courtroom, office, or other space used for official court business or by judicial employees unless the chief judge or other person designated by the chief judge has given prior approval consistent with the court's written policy."

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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullsize4life View Post
Schools are off limits for guns. Period.
U sure?

Take a read about a CPL holder open carrying.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:14 AM   #8
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It does not say schools. Weird.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:19 AM   #9
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I don't consider it weird. I consider it people jumping to conclusions who don't read up on the laws enough.

From a personal standpoint, I don't see the need. But, providing the guy had a valid CPL (which is not stated), he did nothing wrong.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #10
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Yep, its a strange deal. If you have a CPL ( I dont know if the guy in question had one or not ) then you are exempt from the open carry pistol free zone. You cant carry concealed, but if you have the CPL you are ok to open carry.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:24 AM   #11
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The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed.

He was open carrying. So does the law pertain to him? I will be very interested to hear what happens with this situation.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #12
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Thats why I asked. I think it may be a person looking for a fight but is it legal.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:27 AM   #13
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The way I read it the CPL holder is restricted and those with out their CPL aren't. If you have a CPL you are not allowed to carry openly or concealed in a pistol free zone. I have not been able to find anything regarding non CPL holders openly carrying. How ever if this guy doesn't have a CPL and he drove to the school he would have had to transport the weapon according to the laws required for non CPL holders. Kind of a pain. I am sure that there is a clarification of the law somewhere. I just can't seem to find it. Either way this guy is just a plain idiot.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:29 AM   #14
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My opinion... The best way for it to be clarified is for it to go to court. If it does I hope the guy accused gets a damn good lawyer or better yet gets backed by the NRA.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:32 AM   #15
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I would say, if he has his CPL he did nothing against the law. Regardless, It's a dumb-ass move to open carry in a school. Add to that the fact that it was also while casting a ballot. It's not a republican or democrat thing. He's a Dumb-ass, period.

The only thing this does is cast a cloud over gun owners and those wanting to carry, concealed or otherwise. Perfect ammo for the anti-gun supporters.

What a Jack-Wagon...
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistol-free zone. First offense is a state civil infraction. The following is a list of the premises (excluding parking lots) included in the statute:

School or school property, except a parent or legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle

Public or private day care center

Sports arena or stadium

A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of liquor by the glass is the primary source of income (does not apply to owner or employee of the business).

Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless authorized by the presiding official

An entertainment facility that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

A hospital

A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

A casino (R 432.1212, MCL 432.202)
Note, the above statute applies to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is carrying a non-concealed pistol, the statute does not apply. As noted above, the unlawful premises listed in MCL 750.234d do not apply to persons with a valid CPL. Therefore, a person with a valid CPL may carry a non-concealed
Sounds like Rhino is right on, if this guy had a CPL.
I had never seen that before, Thanks!
Good to know, even though I would not pull that kind of thing. I can't afford the time off and lawyer fees.

Last edited by cameron69; February 29th, 2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:33 AM   #17
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I agree that the chance of needing a firearm at a school while voting is slim to none. However pistol free zones are bullshit in my opinion unless it is guarded by armed security/LE. What better place to target than a place were the good guys can't have guns.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:35 AM   #18
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Whiterhino for the win.

CPL class instructor I had was an 'err on the side of caution' type guy, pretty much stated that unless you like legal battles don't carry at all in PFZ's.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:40 AM   #19
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Channel 8 (hype machine) said "it is illegal per the police to carry in a school".

He is in the right as long has a has his CPL and open carries. Channel 8 also said "the case was turned over to the county prosecutor". there is no case as long as the school did not post a no weapons sign on the entry doors. If the school posted a sign, he is in the wrong.

What caught me was that at the end of that segment on the news, "the school officials were looking into having signs posted on the doors to stop future occurances". Might show they know the person carrying is in the right.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:48 AM   #20
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All guys like this (and the one in Breckenridge) are going to accomplish is for schools to adopt independent policies prohibiting any guns carried in any manner on school property. These guys are galvanizing the silent majority against them.

Michigan: 7.1 million Michigan adults (18 & over) without a CPL > 270,000 CPL holders
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