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Old February 23rd, 2012, 07:35 AM   #41
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Abe, stop with the links...

After all the research you've done, you can't name a single exclusively Christian principle that shaped our government?

I think you should stop telling people that our country was founded on Christian principles if you don't even know one of them.
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Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
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Old February 23rd, 2012, 04:48 PM   #42
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See mike I was giving you an opportunity to read it for your self because there is plenty of information about our founding fathers and what they wanted for this country. But you would not even read it, so I posted a few paragraphs for you. These are also in the original hand writings of the founding fathers, so I don't think you can deny that so easliy, but I'm sure you'll try.

here: Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes; [5]


In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to “assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a church” and to provide “annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest.” He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in “promoting Christianity.” [6]


When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. [7] President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol [8] and even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship. [9] Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office. [10]


Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services; [11]


Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive “the patronage of the government”; [12]


Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto; [13]


While President, Jefferson closed his presidential documents with the phrase, “In the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson.”
Which of these things are Christian principles?
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Old February 23rd, 2012, 04:48 PM   #43
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Oh and more

Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
I am not troubled by Jefferson's words because I know how Jefferson felt about Christianity. Have you heard of the Jeffersonian Bible? He believed that the Bible had some good things in it, most of which are ideas not exclusive to Christianity. What he didn't like about it was the supernatural aspect of it, which he tossed aside, literally, with a razor knife.
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Old February 23rd, 2012, 05:32 PM   #44
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Which of these things are Christian principles?
I believe your question was "exclusively" Christian principle. In the quotes they promoted Christianity. That was my point I was trying to make to you and found the evidence for you.
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Old February 23rd, 2012, 10:46 PM   #45
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You can't name one. I figured you couldn't. Our founding fathers weren't trying to promote Christianity, nor any religion, that's why they wrote the constitution the way they did.
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See mike I was giving you an opportunity to read it for your self because there is plenty of information about our founding fathers and what they wanted for this country. But you would not even read it, so I posted a few paragraphs for you. These are also in the original hand writings of the founding fathers, so I don't think you can deny that so easliy, but I'm sure you'll try.

here: Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes; [5]


In an 1803 federal Indian treaty, Jefferson willingly agreed to provide $300 to “assist the said Kaskaskia tribe in the erection of a churchand to provide “annually for seven years $100 towards the support of a Catholic priest.” He also signed three separate acts setting aside government lands for the sole use of religious groups and setting aside government lands so that Moravian missionaries might be assisted in “promoting Christianity.” [6]


When Washington D. C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. [7] President Jefferson chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol [8] and even provided the service with paid government musicians to assist in its worship. [9] Jefferson also began similar Christian services in his own Executive Branch, both at the Treasury Building and at the War Office. [10]


Jefferson praised the use of a local courthouse as a meeting place for Christian services; [11]


Jefferson assured a Christian religious school that it would receive “the patronage of the government”; [12]


Jefferson proposed that the Great Seal of the United States depict a story from the Bible and include the word “God” in its motto; [13]


While President, Jefferson closed his presidential documents with the phrase, “In the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson.”


If that is not PROMOTING Christianity I don't know what is.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:59 AM   #46
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[/COLOR]

If that is not PROMOTING Christianity I don't know what is.
Abe, your "Wallbuilders" quotes are from a non-credible source who have been to proven to misinform and I will not lend any credence to them.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #47
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Abe, your "Wallbuilders" quotes are from a non-credible source who have been to proven to misinform and I will not lend any credence to them.
What "wallbuilders" posts are from original handwritten documents.
You know you can read them for yourself in the writtings of the founding fathers.
Can you actually deny the original writtings?
Maybe you could point out the non-credible source.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #48
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The problem with Wallbuilders is that they started out with what they believed to be true and then went back digging through history, cherry picking things that they think help reinforce their view of the truth, while ignoring so much else.

Not to mention, they also make up stuff to help the story work, like this fictional James Madison quote:

Quote:
We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.
That quote was thrown around by the religious right for years, until the editors of The Papers of James Madison actually took the time to do the research and finally declared it to be totally false.

Now, how many more quotes that the Wallbuilders claim to be legitimate, actually aren't?

So, rather than spend more time arguing about the Wallbuilders, I will just dismiss what they have to say and look towards a more credible source.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #49
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I'm sure you will go to great lengths to make your point.
I would suggest to go to The Library of Congress. I think that is where you would find the actual documents in original writtings. The government would hold onto all and everything from personal writings to offical documents.
There is a ton of information. I think it would be cool to go to Washington to the library of congress and check out the books and stuff they saved from the time. But I did provide a link for you to investigate.

http://www.loc.gov/topics/content.php?cat=8
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Old February 25th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #50
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The problem with Wallbuilders is that they started out with what they believed to be true and then went back digging through history, cherry picking things that they think help reinforce their view of the truth, while ignoring so much else.

Not to mention, they also make up stuff to help the story work, like this fictional James Madison quote:



That quote was thrown around by the religious right for years, until the editors of The Papers of James Madison actually took the time to do the research and finally declared it to be totally false.

Now, how many more quotes that the Wallbuilders claim to be legitimate, actually aren't?

So, rather than spend more time arguing about the Wallbuilders, I will just dismiss what they have to say and look towards a more credible source.
Wallbuilders specifically state that that quote is unconfirmed. See http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissue...les.asp?id=126 quote number 4.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #51
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I disagree, but you already know that. I'm sure there were quite a few Christians who helped in the founding of our country, but I disagree that the principles they founded our country on are exclusive to Christianity. Could you name some that are?
They are not exclusive to Christianity but there is no denying that it is based on the belief that a higher power is where our natural rights derive and that man can not takes these rights from another. They also believed that was where man got his morality from. The framers, in my opinion, purposefully refrained from directly quoting the Bible as much as possible but that doesn't dismiss he fact that they were deeply religious.

Read some of Washington's addresses and correspondence, they are teeming with scripture and the reference to divine providence.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:20 AM   #52
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What doug said. we have an islam problem and liberals don't like to admit it.

It would be great if they came to this country and put being American first and thier religion second. Which is one of the great freedoms we have.
That is not what they are doing. We need to look at what is going on in Spain for starters.
The problem is not Islam in general, there are millions of moderate Muslims that don't buy in to the radicalism of the fundamentalists. Given that, there IS a "Radical Islam" problem that liberals will not admit.

Let's face it, these groups have at their core or in their doctrine the destruction of ALL infidels and the restoration of a global Islam ruled by Sharia Law or a Caliphate. Don't take my word for it, check their own writings. The more I investigate, the more sleep I lose.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:34 AM   #53
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Wallbuilders specifically state that that quote is unconfirmed. See http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissue...les.asp?id=126 quote number 4.
Yes, now that is has been shown to be false.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:36 AM   #54
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The problem is not Islam in general, there are millions of moderate Muslims that don't buy in to the radicalism of the fundamentalists. Given that, there IS a "Radical Islam" problem that liberals will not admit.

Let's face it, these groups have at their core or in their doctrine the destruction of ALL infidels and the restoration of a global Islam ruled by Sharia Law or a Caliphate. Don't take my word for it, check their own writings. The more I investigate, the more sleep I lose.
I will admit there is a problem with all radical religion.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 08:50 AM   #55
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I will admit there is a problem with all radical religion.
Agreed.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 11:07 AM   #56
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They are not exclusive to Christianity but there is no denying that it is based on the belief that a higher power is where our natural rights derive and that man can not takes these rights from another. They also believed that was where man got his morality from. The framers, in my opinion, purposefully refrained from directly quoting the Bible as much as possible but that doesn't dismiss he fact that they were deeply religious.

Read some of Washington's addresses and correspondence, they are teeming with scripture and the reference to divine providence.
The founding fathers also thought it was ok to own another human being, so they weren't perfect and don't need to be worshiped like some do.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #57
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The founding fathers also thought it was ok to own another human being, so they weren't perfect and don't need to be worshiped like some do.
At one time blacks used to own blacks as slaves also which is not right.
As for the founding fathers, they are not worshiped but I do beleive that we need to look up to them as people who had the knowledge to draft a constitution for this nation that would not bring them back to where they came from. For a free people to be free from religious persecution. The government/catholic church persecuting other religions and that is what our founding fathers called separation of church and state, the church running the government.
Here they wanted to promote Christianity but not persecute others for their own beliefs.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #58
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At one time blacks used to own blacks as slaves also which is not right.
As for the founding fathers, they are not worshiped but I do beleive that we need to look up to them as people who had the knowledge to draft a constitution for this nation that would not bring them back to where they came from. For a free people to be free from religious persecution. The government/catholic church persecuting other religions and that is what our founding fathers called separation of church and state, the church running the government.
Here they wanted to promote Christianity but not persecute others for their own beliefs.
Why do you feel the need to mention that "blacks used to own blacks as slaves" ? I wasn't referring to race, or claiming that only white people owned slaves, so I'm not sure why you mentioned it. I also wouldn't worship those people or their founding document drafting skills.

I disagree with you on the founding fathers wanting to 'promote christianity'. Maybe some wanted to on their own personal time, but not on behalf of the government. When you look at the way the constitution and subsequent laws were drafted, they didn't want to mix government with religion.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #59
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The founding fathers also thought it was ok to own another human being, so they weren't perfect and don't need to be worshiped like some do.
Holy crap Sova, That was a drastic subject change, even for you. You almost always say "the founding fathers this". But when some one brings a logical answer to you you automatically change the subject to "well they weren't perfect".
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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #60
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The founding fathers also thought it was ok to own another human being, so they weren't perfect and don't need to be worshiped like some do.
That's not really true, VERY few of the founding fathers agreed with slavery. If you read the history of the constitution you'll find that the only reason it wasn't outright banned was that they (the abolitionists) knew the constitution would never had been ratified. They felt that the foundation had been laid in the constitution and declaration that would eventually lead to the end of slavery.

This tact of the left to rewrite our history, to try to tarnish the founders in an effort to delegitimize in some way the founding of our nation is appalling.

If one understands the times in which the constitution was written, reads the non-public writings (as well as some public writings) of the founders, you can clearly see their views.

In 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York.

Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.

“I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].”
—George Washington

“[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known… [N]ever in my life did I own a slave.”
—John Adams

“[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil.”
—Charles Carroll

“As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they …[c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery].”
—John Dickinson

So, before we start bashing our heritage, let's have a little understanding of them at the very least.
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