Recomadations on belt mounting points on air ride seat. - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

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Old January 7th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #1
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Default Recomadations on belt mounting points on air ride seat.

I want to use suspension seats in my build.



They really buffer the bumps leading to less back pain and a overall better feel when driving.

The seat is bolted to the floor then has 2 limiting straps on each side holding it from being inflated higher then it should be. The belt mechanism is a normal 3 point attached to the floor and the B pillar.
I normally drive with it half inflated in the semi and get good results in comfort. The issue that I have is while it is comfortable the seat tends to rise/fall roughly 6 inches. What I want to do In the rig is take a worn seat and install a 6 point high back seat on the suspension. As you can imagine having the belt mounting points fixed behind the seat the seats suspension would create a issue.
The solution of making a bar that attaches to the seat base behind the seat and rises and falls with the seat seems simple. The seat is still attached by the limiting straps and then entire seat assembly is bolted to the floor.

I am just unsure about the legality of it and would like some advise. It should be legal, the seat is restrained by being bolted to the floor and the seat belts are attached to the seat. Further more the seat is held by straps to prevent the drivers helmet from hitting the roof.

I really want to use these seats and it only adds 6"(when fully raised with 6" overhead clearance) to the over all height of the rig to use them. I just need some feedback or recommendations on how to mount the belts to keep this thing 100% legal.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 04:44 PM   #2
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How is it mounted in your Semi? Do it that way. If I remember correctly, the seatbelt in my semi were mounted to the seat frame so it rised and fell with the seat.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #3
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The 3 points are at the bottom of the seat on the drivers side next to the limiting strap, the B pillar next to the top of the seat, and the passenger side of the seat next to the limiting strap. This works in a 3 point system but in a 6 point system the upper straps would be slacking heavily or cause a condition that would contract the spine if mounted to the frame. Actually the 3 point system is constantly slacking/tightening across my chest due to the seat rising/falling.

Watch the driver in the video:

http://blutube.policeone.com/videos/...-test-dummies/

The air ride seat's suspension lets the upper belt cause slack by not holding tight in a roll over and the dummies upper body is allowed to slide free from the belt restraint as a result. A 6 point system that is attached to the frame will help keeping the person centered. But the seat belts will still sag causing the belt to slap against the persons neck as a result of the slack. Mounting the upper harness points to the seat will allow them to remain taunt in any situation.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #4
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The potential problem is the seat backs probably aren't designed to have the shoulder belts mounted to them. What good would the shoulder harness do if the seat back collapsed forward into the steering wheel?

You would have to design some form of harness bar behind the seat that would have the belt mounts on sliders to freely travel up and down with the seat yet remain rigid fore and aft. At least that's what my hillrod engineering mind is drawing up.

Have you sat in a good set of suspension seats (Mastercraft, PRP)? They are quite comfy and might be a simpler option.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebs View Post
might be a simpler option.
Haven't met cerial, have you
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #6
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The top of the suspension bracket(the mid section under the seat controls where the seat mounts to) is quite thick. I plan on bolting a plate on top of the suspension bracket and mounting the seat to that. The plate will extend behind the seat giving me room to weld a hoop that will follow the outline of the seat back providing a place to mount the upper gussets. The belts will not attach to the seat they will pass through it to the hoop behind.

The suspension sets by master craft and such are nice but for less cost I can easily install air ride seats. By having the hoop behind the seat I can install a different seat at a later time. That and I wont be concerned if a 300+ passenger decides they want to ride along like I may be with a suspension seat by PRP etc.


The legal side is what I can not get a answer to on this.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #7
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Omfg k.i.s.s.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
The legal side is what I can not get a answer to on this.
What are you installing it in? The CJ project? That only needs a lap belt at most.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:40 PM   #9
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If it turns out they are not legal then yes suspension seats on rather tall brackets is plan B.

I have a lot of it figured out with a few loose ends such as this legal question. I am currently learning Autodesk Inventor with the intent of checking the Stress Analysis in the cage/frame to further strengthen the design while reducing weight in areas. The seats are just something that I want. They will change the design if I decide not to add them due to legality.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #10
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This is a good question for the guys on over on Pirate 4x4. Seat mounting gods they are.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
What are you installing it in? The CJ project? That only needs a lap belt at most.
Nope the cj project was shelved I need to install the 225, rebuild the t-14, re wire, fix the tub, and it is done. I could not justify cutting the cj to bits to make a buggy when it needs so little to be restored.

This is a ground up one off buggy that will exceed (except airbags) 2014 safety crash standards.
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Old January 7th, 2012, 08:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
This is a ground up one off buggy that will exceed (except airbags) 2014 safety crash standards.
A) I doubt it.
B) If it doesn't have airbags, it doesn't meet 2014 standards, does it?

Its an assembled vehicle, look at the requirements on SOS website or talk to them. Its just a police inspection. The checklist used to be online.


I personally would not want a true semi-truck style suspension seat in an offroader. You bounce too much, its not designed for that. Its fatigue because you move so much hour after hour on a long run.

Had them in my Deuce and a half, when I had it offroad, you just move around to much.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #13
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After messaging back and forth it is legal in every regard and actually exceeds current safety standards. Actually, I have brought the attention of the shoulder slacking/tightening during a crash to a few people who may impose a seat design.

Frankly, after looking more into it I decided I was going to do it legal or not so my butt would have a lessened chance of injury in a roll. But, being reassured that it is legal lets me move forward constantly without distraction.

In case your still wondering what I am rambling about here is the typical 3 point that is now used.



Points C and D are where the lap belt attaches and move up and down along with the seat. Point B is attached to the door post and is restrained by point A.



As the Seat cycles up and down the shoulder part is allowed to slack and contract. In a forward accident where there is prior massive breaking the seat is allowed to drop but the shoulder belt retracts holding tight against the drivers chest. Once there is a impact the seat rises but the belt remains contracted forcing it into the drivers chest contracting the spine. What I have proposed is moving point B to behind the driver. It would still be adjustable a few inches but would be behind the driver none the less. Point A would remain behind the seat. Because the seat is restrained and bolted to the floor the mounting points still amount as "secured fixtures" despite the rising and falling of the seat itself.

It is kind of out of my hands as far as implementing this change to future models. But, hopefully bringing attention to this madame issue will lead to fewer overlooked minor issues in the future.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 02:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
A) I doubt it.
B) If it doesn't have airbags, it doesn't meet 2014 standards, does it?

Its an assembled vehicle, look at the requirements on SOS website or talk to them. Its just a police inspection. The checklist used to be online.
I have the checklist off the MDOT/SOS website. I also have the lift laws and emissions regulations for other states and this will be 50 state legal emissions wise. Airbags are not on required on the assembly list and I do not plan on using them in the steering wheel. Currently I am working with Autodesk Inventor to see the effects of stress in a side impact on road crash with the imposing vehicle moving at 40mph. While I am confident in the overbuilt cage design in a roll,rear, front fender, front, or rear fender crash. The side impact results have me cringing a bit. I found that with a small vehicle that would make it in the 65" gap between tires parts of the vehicle pushes against a 15ish section of the door bowing it and protrude into the drivers/passengers area. I am trying out different methods of moving/redesigning the upright inner post in a effort to strengthen the tri-tube design. I am also trying different thicknesses of the HDPE door skin and so far am liking the results when using 2 layers of 3/4" material with a 3/8"gap for the glass to move within but it adds a undesirable amount of weight to the removable door.


Here is the tr-54 form that shows the requirements of a assembled vehicle that is home made built by someone that is NOT recognized as a manufacturer. Those vehicles built by those recognized as a manufacturer have required airbags since the mid/late 90's.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TR-54_38480_7.pdf

At the bottom they give a list of codes such as 257.688 that outline the exact standards of the necessary equipment. As long as it is DOT/MDOT legal it is good for on road use.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #15
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i know i may be a bit late... but check out the seats in the 2000-2006 silverado and sierras, the 3pt seat belts are actually built into the seats and not the b pillar. buy two seats, and mock up the passenger side of the seat into the drivers side and see what you come up with.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #16
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1) Learn to spell "recommendations"

2) Your ideas suck
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Old January 14th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Strangler View Post
1) Learn to spell "recommendations"

2) Your ideas suck
No, its cool, he ran it through Autodeck Inventor and got a stamp of approval.

Plus, he can slice tomatos on it and not damage his knives.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
I have the checklist off the MDOT/SOS website. I also have the lift laws and emissions regulations for other states and this will be 50 state legal emissions wise. Airbags are not on required on the assembly list and I do not plan on using them in the steering wheel. Currently I am working with Autodesk Inventor to see the effects of stress in a side impact on road crash with the imposing vehicle moving at 40mph. While I am confident in the overbuilt cage design in a roll,rear, front fender, front, or rear fender crash. The side impact results have me cringing a bit. I found that with a small vehicle that would make it in the 65" gap between tires parts of the vehicle pushes against a 15ish section of the door bowing it and protrude into the drivers/passengers area. I am trying out different methods of moving/redesigning the upright inner post in a effort to strengthen the tri-tube design. I am also trying different thicknesses of the HDPE door skin and so far am liking the results when using 2 layers of 3/4" material with a 3/8"gap for the glass to move within but it adds a undesirable amount of weight to the removable door.


Here is the tr-54 form that shows the requirements of a assembled vehicle that is home made built by someone that is NOT recognized as a manufacturer. Those vehicles built by those recognized as a manufacturer have required airbags since the mid/late 90's.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TR-54_38480_7.pdf

At the bottom they give a list of codes such as 257.688 that outline the exact standards of the necessary equipment. As long as it is DOT/MDOT legal it is good for on road use.


If you are getting your info from the web, I doubt you are meeting any standards. Its not mean to be rude, its just that auto design is a lot harder than people realize. I would expect that if you completed it, you could easily find 100 FMVSS violations without too much effort.


What engine are you running?

What vehicle network setup are you running?
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Old January 14th, 2012, 11:46 PM   #19
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This thread makes me think of one word............................................








































































WHY??????
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