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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:30 PM   #61
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actually, undersea oil seepage releases more oil annualy into the ocean than the bp spill did.
again, stupid statistic. The ocean floor is a massive and yes, there is natural oil seepage, but it is not concentrated in a local area anywhere near as much as a human induced oil spill. 5 million barrels of oil distributed across all of the ocaen floor is nothing like 5 million gallons exiting a drilling rig. Don't get me wrong, I think oil drilling is the right thing to do, but that statistic is flawed.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:35 PM   #62
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again, stupid statistic. The ocean floor is a massive and yes, there is natural oil seepage, but it is not concentrated in a local area anywhere near as much as a human induced oil spill. 5 million barrels of oil distributed across all of the ocaen floor is nothing like 5 million gallons exiting a drilling rig. Don't get me wrong, I think oil drilling is the right thing to do, but that statistic is flawed.
almost as flawed as the damage reports that were spawned from the incident.

Here is a great example of oil damage being overblown. last july 1000 barrels of oil were spilled in the yellowstone. the river was at a 40 year high and a pipeline broke. since the river had not been reaching these levels in many years people built houses on the floodplains of the river. these houses were under 4+ feet of water when the small oil slick reached them. cenex bought these people new houses due to oil damage. The governor was sure to exploit this situation, just like oniggerbama did the gulf.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:40 PM   #63
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almost as flawed as the damage reports that were spawned from the incident.

Here is a great example of oil damage being overblown. last july 1000 barrels of oil were spilled in the yellowstone. the river was at a 40 year high and a pipeline broke. since the river had not been reaching these levels in many years people built houses on the floodplains of the river. these houses were under 4+ feet of water when the small oil slick reached them. cenex bought these people new houses due to oil damage. The governor was sure to exploit this situation, just like oniggerbama did the gulf.
Here's another great example:

Posted: 4:24 AM Dec 14, 2011
River Clean-Up Continues
Enbridge, DEQ take Kalamazoo River oil samples
Reporter: AP


Oil spill cleanup efforts are continuing on the Kalamazoo River.
A team was out on a recent morning sampling groundwater near Marshall.
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality biologist Mike Alexander says the sampling will be part of a lengthy investigative process that could last 24 to 30 months.
The Battle Creek Enquirer reports the investigation into the extent of remaining damage from the 2010 oil spill is one part of the work that will continue on the river this winter.
The DEQ also is working with Enbridge Inc., the company responsible for the spill, to eliminate contamination found along Talmadge Creek. Alexander says the work involves digging up and removing contaminated soil, then restoring the creek.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:41 PM   #64
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Except - if he didn't have a Volt on hand, he might lose an (however improbable) actual sale. But hey, here's another thing - the Volt gets *some* additional people into the showroom -and- is a pretty neat showcase of technologies, even if you can only sit inside it on a showroom floor.

Not much different than all the high-end cars that get people in the door; most people that come to look at a Mustang GT / Shelby will end up in a base model or below - but it's still a sale.
GM required the same with SSRs I believe. Its not volt specific, its just that since people don't like the Volt (which seems partially an extension of Obama dislike), they'll bring it up now.

Dealers were making the same complaints with SSRs. They didn't exactly sell well in farm country.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:45 PM   #65
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Here's another great example:

Posted: 4:24 AM Dec 14, 2011
River Clean-Up Continues
Enbridge, DEQ take Kalamazoo River oil samples
Reporter: AP


Oil spill cleanup efforts are continuing on the Kalamazoo River.
A team was out on a recent morning sampling groundwater near Marshall.
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality biologist Mike Alexander says the sampling will be part of a lengthy investigative process that could last 24 to 30 months.
The Battle Creek Enquirer reports the investigation into the extent of remaining damage from the 2010 oil spill is one part of the work that will continue on the river this winter.
The DEQ also is working with Enbridge Inc., the company responsible for the spill, to eliminate contamination found along Talmadge Creek. Alexander says the work involves digging up and removing contaminated soil, then restoring the creek.
The MI DEQ is fucking retarded.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:47 PM   #66
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The MI DEQ is fucking retarded.
well that explains a lot
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:47 PM   #67
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My best friend had a 92 with all those options but a 5 star crash test and 0-60 time. Ext. Cab long bed 4x4 auto loaded 21mpg with a teenager driving. (I was rocking my 6.9 Ford @18mpg)

If the last 20 years of development had been spent making this more efficient rather than meeting cafe standards, we would have this now. As it is, a new 6.7 crewcab 4x4 will nearly hit the 20mpg mark solely by ditching the DPF, EGR, etc..

A good friend works for Cummins in the after treatment section. They take the well designed and powerful engines from R&D, and choke them out to meet ridiculous standards, and try to retain as much power as they can.
LAME. How about we just put them on the road and enjoy them? Oh, that's right, we have to have these standards to push Chevy Volts out the door.

I understand working around the existing standards and regulations. That is the problem.

Without them, people would still buy the more efficient vehicles because it makes economic sense.

Just like horsepower wars, fuel milage wars will drive the efficiency up.
I disagree on several things:

R&D may produce something well designed and powerful, but it is *NEVER* ready for the real world and how people use things. The aftertreatment on diesels is not to further incentive-ize CAFE standards, it is due to the Eco-Nazis (aka the california air resources board) imposing near-impossible exhaust emissions standards on medium and heavy-duty diesel trucks.

Also, the customer has dictated (and driven) the horsepower/hauling wars in the 3/4 ton & up segment. Take my 2011 Sierra HD 3/4 ton truck for an example. 3/4 of 1 ton = 1,500 lb. I should be able to safely haul 1500 punds of payload in my truck.

Whoops - I can put over 3100 pounds in the bed and not be over-weight. I can tow 13,000 pound because I have the 3.73 axle, but if I had 4.10's I would be at 16,000 lbs. That's fucking retarded - and all the fault of the consumers wanting to do more with less and wanting to boast the biggest numbers - even if they never used them.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:48 PM   #68
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LOL @ the oil industry experts in this thread. Faggar, you know nothing. If you saw the before and after pictures of a drilling location you would still run your huge flap since its what you do best. I just spent 2 weeks doing xrays and weld inspections on a 54,000 barrel oil tank. if it leaks due to shoddy workmanship my company is fined 250K. the standards and safeguards in place are keeping a lot of accidents from happening, the bp spill was a terrible accident. When you look at the amount of rigs in use versus the amount of accidents like that, its a miracle they are so few and far between. As for the ecological damage, there has been much less than predicted. Take wild fowl numbers for example. there was a predicted drop in waterbird numbers due to marsh damage in their breeding grounds. there are now record numbers of waterbirds. did the oil make them multiply?

Oil makes everything you buy. period. without oil we would still be subsistance farming with a early industrial technology base. there are other hydrocarbons out there besides crude oil. crude is the easiest and the cheapest. If you like your way of life but hate big oil you are a fucking hypocrite.
Hmm, I don't think I said I was an expert or that I hate big oil, I just said oil is finite. By definition, it must be. Gold is, platinum is, everything is.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:49 PM   #69
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well that explains a lot
ever delt with them? they have bankrupted many small businesses.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:53 PM   #70
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ever delt with them? they have bankrupted many small businesses.
Was it deserved, or should be Enbridge be able to walk away and not clean up their mess?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:54 PM   #71
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I disagree on several things:

R&D may produce something well designed and powerful, but it is *NEVER* ready for the real world and how people use things. The aftertreatment on diesels is not to further incentive-ize CAFE standards, it is due to the Eco-Nazis (aka the california air resources board) imposing near-impossible exhaust emissions standards on medium and heavy-duty diesel trucks.

Also, the customer has dictated (and driven) the horsepower/hauling wars in the 3/4 ton & up segment. Take my 2011 Sierra HD 3/4 ton truck for an example. 3/4 of 1 ton = 1,500 lb. I should be able to safely haul 1500 punds of payload in my truck.

Whoops - I can put over 3100 pounds in the bed and not be over-weight. I can tow 13,000 pound because I have the 3.73 axle, but if I had 4.10's I would be at 16,000 lbs. That's fucking retarded - and all the fault of the consumers wanting to do more with less and wanting to boast the biggest numbers - even if they never used them.

Nonono, clearly people want a stripped car with roll up windows and rubber floor mats and an engine that can't actually pass emissions and therefore legally be sold.




The thing that people forget(especially people who want more vehicle than they can afford), is that car companies are in the business of making profit.

Its often better business to sell fewer cars with higher content that makes lots of profit than more cars with lower content that make less profit. Up to them to figure out what balance they want.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:57 PM   #72
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Was it deserved, or should be Enbridge be able to walk away and not clean up their mess?
not saying that, but how far does the cleanup need to be taken? Do you know how much it costs to clean up one square yard of contaminated dirt? how about the sub standard septic systems out there contamination ground water than no one is fixing?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:05 PM   #73
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not saying that, but how far does the cleanup need to be taken? Do you know how much it costs to clean up one square yard of contaminated dirt? how about the sub standard septic systems out there contamination ground water than no one is fixing?
How clean do you want it to be? If it doesn't bother anyone to have globs of oil stuck to their shins or no fish and/or wildlife left in a contaminated river then that must be clean enough, right? Me, I prefer to see a clean waterway and not have to worry about what cleaner to use on my legs when I get home at the end of the day, or if the fish I caught are safe enough to eat.

If the septic systems are leaking and contaminating ground water or watersheds then they need to be replaced or repaired, simple as that. People fix their roofs when they start leaking they can fix their septic system when it starts leaking.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:07 PM   #74
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How clean do you want it to be? If it doesn't bother anyone to have globs of oil stuck to their shins or no fish and/or wildlife left in a contaminated river then that must be clean enough, right? Me, I prefer to see a clean waterway and not have to worry about what cleaner to use on my legs when I get home at the end of the day, or if the fish I caught are safe enough to eat.

If the septic systems are leaking and contaminating ground water or watersheds then they need to be replaced or repaired, simple as that. People fix their roofs when they start leaking they can fix their septic system when it starts leaking.
life must be great when you are a simpleton... if oil gets into a river it collects on the banks and seeps in. the water can be clean but there might be a slight amount of oil in the river bank. the MI DEQ will dig down 5 feet, find a trace amount of oil and make them haul off a ton of dirt.

There are plenty of sources of contamination out there that are ignored. the DEQ goes after the oil industry because they have money to spare. it all comes down to money.

Last edited by steveo; December 21st, 2011 at 02:11 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:08 PM   #75
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not saying that, but how far does the cleanup need to be taken? Do you know how much it costs to clean up one square yard of contaminated dirt? how about the sub standard septic systems out there contamination ground water than no one is fixing?

Honestly, when do those arguments ever fly in life?

Did anyone ever get punished less becasue their brother was also being bad?

What would people's attitude be if they wrecked their car, and their insurance company said, do you know how expensive it is to fix it perfect to pre-accident condition? We'll fix it good enough to use, but not all the way.



The rules are what the rules are. If you want to be in the business, you have to follow them. Oil cleanup, Diesel Emissions, whatever.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:09 PM   #76
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life must be great when you are a simpleton...
No, I just like to live in a clean environment. If you're responsible for fukcing it up you get to fix it, even if it does drive you to bankruptcy.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:09 PM   #77
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they start leaking they can fix their septic system when it starts leaking.
A septic field is kinda one big leak...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:13 PM   #78
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Honestly, when do those arguments ever fly in life?

Did anyone ever get punished less becasue their brother was also being bad?

What would people's attitude be if they wrecked their car, and their insurance company said, do you know how expensive it is to fix it perfect to pre-accident condition? We'll fix it good enough to use, but not all the way.



The rules are what the rules are. If you want to be in the business, you have to follow them. Oil cleanup, Diesel Emissions, whatever.
Thats fine and dandy, I agree they need to clean it up. but they focus on one industry while others get away with murder.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:15 PM   #79
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Lets take agriculture for example. do you know just how bad farming fucks up the environment?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 02:15 PM   #80
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Thats fine and dandy, I agree they need to clean it up. but they focus on one industry while others get away with murder.
and who exactly is "they"
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