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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM   #41
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So why did they quit with the last electric car. If this was for the greater good you'd like they would have contiuned . . . hmmm...

Oh yeah, Cruz eco gets almost the same milage for half the price. Why are we producing volts again?

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
Hi.

You know less about the auto industry than I know about God.

Please stop.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:26 PM   #42
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"Business is war" - popular Japanese quote attributed to any number of Japanese business leaders.

I support - in concept, but not the actual execution - the government "bailout" of GM & Chrysler.

I oppose the fact that Obie did it to prevent bankruptcy of GM/Chrysler to protect UAW contracts and interests to pay back that key group of blindly obidient supporters who continue to support whoever the trot out, even if they drive CAFE, NAFTA, OSHA, oil drilling moratoriums, etc... that are not in their best interests. If you think I'm off-base, look at what Obie directed be done to the salaried retirees of Delphi and the Executive Order boning the non-subordinated GM bondholders, who were not (first group) and typically were not (second group) UAW members.

I'd rather see my tax $ squandered to advance technology (for U.S. companies) any day than see it used to fund the National Endowment for the Arts, PBS, NPR, virtually all foreign aid, placing our troops on the DMZ in Korea, continuing to prop up and fund NATO to protect Europeans from other Europeans and Central Asians, just to name a few.

Back in the 60s and part of the 70s, U.S. businesses got a HUGE indirect government subsidy in the form of the space program. We moved ahead at a rate unequalled before or since. Without the mega-$ spent on landing on the moon, I doubt that we would have this medium available to us right now - at the current costs.

Japan, China, Korea, Germany - all support their "home team" businesses - and it's time we started doing more of the same.

Oh, and I suspect that if the Koreans and Japanese were carrying the full weight of their own security and defense, there'd less money available to help their businesses conduct R&D...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:27 PM   #43
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And btw, I'd buy a Volt if they were the same $ as my Malibu.

And for the record, I'm a former GM Components Group (Allison Gas Turbine, now Rolls-Royce) salaried employee and screwed-over GM unsubordinated bond holder.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:28 PM   #44
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The one that wouldn't have happened if it had been an American company working on American land?


Ok, google enbridge oil spill, not an american company but it happened on our soil undet our watch.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:29 PM   #45
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I like threads where hag gar pretends to be smart by trying to insult everyone but doesn't actually have any sort of logical response to add to the conversation.why? Is that a common daily occurance? Accidents happen,when was the last oil spill from these irresponsible oil companies?

I think you are the one who is being kidded when comparing oil spills to irresponsible corporations.So why the hell would they make him keep one in stock? That's ridiculous,

Hey nester, here's a car we know we did not build to target your demographic, and it probably won't sell, and it isn't even practical or useful in your area, BUT we're gonna require you keep one in the show room.

That's fucking retarded, that's almost like selling diesel crew cab long bed dually's in downtown chicago or manhattan and requiring the dealers in those areas to keep them in stock.
Except - if he didn't have a Volt on hand, he might lose an (however improbable) actual sale. But hey, here's another thing - the Volt gets *some* additional people into the showroom -and- is a pretty neat showcase of technologies, even if you can only sit inside it on a showroom floor.

Not much different than all the high-end cars that get people in the door; most people that come to look at a Mustang GT / Shelby will end up in a base model or below - but it's still a sale.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:36 PM   #46
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Except - if he didn't have a Volt on hand, he might lose an (however improbable) actual sale. But hey, here's another thing - the Volt gets *some* additional people into the showroom -and- is a pretty neat showcase of technologies, even if you can only sit inside it on a showroom floor.

Not much different than all the high-end cars that get people in the door; most people that come to look at a Mustang GT / Shelby will end up in a base model or below - but it's still a sale.
Sure I get that to a point, but it should be at the discretion of the dealer based on his demographics, not required of him by General motors to stock a 40k item that he has very little chance of selling.

On the flip side if he had a customer come in that really had to have a volt, he could do like many other dealers do and purchase it from a different dealer or order it from the factory.

I see it as more harmful to force him to stock an expensive item than as helpful to force him to stock something he probably won't be able to sell.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:40 PM   #47
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Sure I get that to a point, but it should be at the discretion of the dealer based on his demographics, not required of him by General motors to stock a 40k item that he has very little chance of selling.

On the flip side if he had a customer come in that really had to have a volt, he could do like many other dealers do and purchase it from a different dealer or order it from the factory.

I see it as more harmful to force him to stock an expensive item than as helpful to force him to stock something he probably won't be able to sell.
What I don't get is this: How in the heck does GM require someone to take a Volt? GM sells cars: GM sells cars to dealerships. Not sure where the line is drawn - but there are a lot of things GM would like to change about some dealerships and cannot do a thing about it.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:43 PM   #48
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To clarify what I said, or some may say change my tune, I support the governement subsidies for a domestic company to develop new technologies. I do not support them only doing it for the green movement. Back to the Keystone pipeline, I would like to see some money dumped into something like that versus the Solyndra debacle.

I think the CAFE standards are too tight. Let a truck be a truck.
I think our emission restrictions in general are too tight. It's stupid that we can put a Duramax into a 3/4 ton truck but not into a 3/4 ton Suburban because it's a "passenger vehicle" or "station wagon" and therefore the emissions must be tighter.
I think people are naive about how "clean" electric cars are. What does the mining do to the environment? How long will a battery last and what are the implications of recycling or disposing of it? Do you really think the electricity comes out of the wall for free and it wasn't created by a fossil fuel?

To me, green alternative products should evolve as the market demands, not what sounds good for an election. By the way, is it true that there is a recall on all Volts? Maybe rumor, I don't know????
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:49 PM   #49
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What I don't get is this: How in the heck does GM require someone to take a Volt? GM sells cars: GM sells cars to dealerships. Not sure where the line is drawn - but there are a lot of things GM would like to change about some dealerships and cannot do a thing about it.
I have no idea how it works. I am only commenting on what he has said.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 12:53 PM   #50
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why? Is that a common daily occurance? Accidents happen,when was the last oil spill from these irresponsible oil companies?
So because it doesn't happen on a daily basis epic ecological(and financial) disasters are OK once and awhile?

My argument is that what people say they are going to do and what they do are two different things, what companies say they are going to do and what they do are two different things, and what our government says its going to do and what it does are two different things.

What will happen is the government will allow drilling somewhere ecologically sensitive. They will accomplish this by saying they have very strict regulations, inspections, , to appease these evil "greenies". The companies will say they do inspections and ensure safe conditions. The workers will say they are doing the inspections. Then at some point along the way all three of these promises will fail and it will be BP Gulf Spill 2.0. Then people will get all enraged as the news shows the horrors. Then a whole new set of standards will be set in place "so it never happens again" and the whole process will start over again.

That's how EVERYTHING goes in this country. 9/11 for example. The day after no one had problems full on cavity searches to get on a plane...now people bitch when they have to take their shoes off. Give it another 10 years and we will be complacent enough for it to happen again.

I'm all in favor of getting the non-renewable resources that we can out of the Earth and using them until different methods are found. What I want to see happen is it be done responsibly. And at this point I have zero percent faith in the people and the government insuring that will happen.

If we just blaze forward in search of means to get $1.00 a gallon gas without questioning how responsibly we are doing it we will end up like China and you all will be pulling three eyed fish out of the lake for dinner...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:04 PM   #51
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So because it doesn't happen on a daily basis epic ecological(and financial) disasters are OK once and awhile?

My argument is that what people say they are going to do and what they do are two different things, what companies say they are going to do and what they do are two different things, and what our government says its going to do and what it does are two different things.

What will happen is the government will allow drilling somewhere ecologically sensitive. They will accomplish this by saying they have very strict regulations, inspections, , to appease these evil "greenies". The companies will say they do inspections and ensure safe conditions. The workers will say they are doing the inspections. Then at some point along the way all three of these promises will fail and it will be BP Gulf Spill 2.0. Then people will get all enraged as the news shows the horrors. Then a whole new set of standards will be set in place "so it never happens again" and the whole process will start over again.

That's how EVERYTHING goes in this country. 9/11 for example. The day after no one had problems full on cavity searches to get on a plane...now people bitch when they have to take their shoes off. Give it another 10 years and we will be complacent enough for it to happen again.

I'm all in favor of getting the non-renewable resources that we can out of the Earth and using them until different methods are found. What I want to see happen is it be done responsibly. And at this point I have zero percent faith in the people and the government insuring that will happen.

If we just blaze forward in search of means to get $1.00 a gallon gas without questioning how responsibly we are doing it we will end up like China and you all will be pulling three eyed fish out of the lake for dinner...
Except that it is occurring on a daily basis.

http://www.ajc.com/business/ap-enter...l-1265268.html
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:05 PM   #52
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So because it doesn't happen on a daily basis epic ecological(and financial) disasters are OK once and awhile?
So how often does it happen?

How much benefit do we get out of the oil industry per accidental spill?

Sure we should definitely explore other options and technologies, but major and even minor oil spills happen very infrequently for the amount of oil we are using, drilling for, shipping, refining, etc.

How bad can it be anyway? We are PULLING that oil OUT of the earth, if it spills it's just going back where it came from right?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:13 PM   #53
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LOL @ the oil industry experts in this thread. Faggar, you know nothing. If you saw the before and after pictures of a drilling location you would still run your huge flap since its what you do best. I just spent 2 weeks doing xrays and weld inspections on a 54,000 barrel oil tank. if it leaks due to shoddy workmanship my company is fined 250K. the standards and safeguards in place are keeping a lot of accidents from happening, the bp spill was a terrible accident. When you look at the amount of rigs in use versus the amount of accidents like that, its a miracle they are so few and far between. As for the ecological damage, there has been much less than predicted. Take wild fowl numbers for example. there was a predicted drop in waterbird numbers due to marsh damage in their breeding grounds. there are now record numbers of waterbirds. did the oil make them multiply?

Oil makes everything you buy. period. without oil we would still be subsistance farming with a early industrial technology base. there are other hydrocarbons out there besides crude oil. crude is the easiest and the cheapest. If you like your way of life but hate big oil you are a fucking hypocrite.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:14 PM   #54
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How bad can it be anyway? We are PULLING that oil OUT of the earth, if it spills it's just going back where it came from right?
actually, undersea oil seepage releases more oil annualy into the ocean than the bp spill did.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:17 PM   #55
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As an outdoorsman, I agree what protecting our environment is vital.

That is best done through sound rulemaking that is based on proven science - not pseudo-science, junk science, or emotional appeals. After years in the nuke business, I know what sound rulemaking looks like (ask me why Three Mile Island was a success) and what crap looks like (CAFE, Cap & Trade, etc...).

We need rulemaking processes that allows impartial, data-driven, and fact-based scientists to develop the basis for risk-based rules - that are then accepted (in total) or rejected (in total) by politicians, keeping the uneducated politicians out of the content.

However, look into the BP spill. While a lot of oil was released and a mess was made, the true scope and scale of the mess was in reality a lot smaller than the way it was played out in the media. A combination of an Obie administration that both "didn't want to let a crisis go to waste" and wanted to differentiate themselves in the gulf region after Katrina blended with a media looking for something (anything?) sensational that would allow them to become part of the story and win some awards. Compare it to the similar-sized leak in Mexican gulf waters that leaked for years...

We can exploit our own resources safely and cleanly - and should. We also need to be aggressively (like "race for the moon" aggressively) pursuing energy independence, in a way that stimulates the economy and creates long-term, sustainable jobs.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:17 PM   #56
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The are doing everything they can to keep us from using the natural resources we have in this country. they are more concerned about saving wolves and keeping drilling rigs off their vacation homes beaches than they are about getting afordable energy to the american people. not to mention the jobs these resources would create.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:18 PM   #57
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As an outdoorsman, I agree what protecting our environment is vital.

That is best done through sound rulemaking that is based on proven science - not pseudo-science, junk science, or emotional appeals. After years in the nuke business, I know what sound rulemaking looks like (ask me why Three Mile Island was a success) and what crap looks like (CAFE, Cap & Trade, etc...).

We need rulemaking processes that allows impartial, data-driven, and fact-based scientists to develop the basis for risk-based rules - that are then accepted (in total) or rejected (in total) by politicians, keeping the uneducated politicians out of the content.

However, look into the BP spill. While a lot of oil was released and a mess was made, the true scope and scale of the mess was in reality a lot smaller than the way it was played out in the media. A combination of an Obie administration that both "didn't want to let a crisis go to waste" and wanted to differentiate themselves in the gulf region after Katrina blended with a media looking for something (anything?) sensational that would allow them to become part of the story and win some awards. Compare it to the similar-sized leak in Mexican gulf waters that leaked for years...

We can exploit our own resources safely and cleanly - and should. We also need to be aggressively (like "race for the moon" aggressively) pursuing energy independence, in a way that stimulates the economy and creates long-term, sustainable jobs.
well said.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:24 PM   #58
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The are doing everything they can to keep us from using the natural resources we have in this country. they are more concerned about saving wolves and keeping drilling rigs off their vacation homes beaches than they are about getting afordable energy to the american people. not to mention the jobs these resources would create.
To an extent, I am glad we are limiting ourselves from using our resources. As other countries deplete their resources we will always have ours to turn to. I think it's a good strategy to buy resources from other countries as long as they are reasonably priced.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:24 PM   #59
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As an outdoorsman, I agree what protecting our environment is vital.

That is best done through sound rulemaking that is based on proven science - not pseudo-science, junk science, or emotional appeals. After years in the nuke business, I know what sound rulemaking looks like (ask me why Three Mile Island was a success) and what crap looks like (CAFE, Cap & Trade, etc...).

We need rulemaking processes that allows impartial, data-driven, and fact-based scientists to develop the basis for risk-based rules - that are then accepted (in total) or rejected (in total) by politicians, keeping the uneducated politicians out of the content.

However, look into the BP spill. While a lot of oil was released and a mess was made, the true scope and scale of the mess was in reality a lot smaller than the way it was played out in the media. A combination of an Obie administration that both "didn't want to let a crisis go to waste" and wanted to differentiate themselves in the gulf region after Katrina blended with a media looking for something (anything?) sensational that would allow them to become part of the story and win some awards. Compare it to the similar-sized leak in Mexican gulf waters that leaked for years...

We can exploit our own resources safely and cleanly - and should. We also need to be aggressively (like "race for the moon" aggressively) pursuing energy independence, in a way that stimulates the economy and creates long-term, sustainable jobs.
blasphemy
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Old December 21st, 2011, 01:25 PM   #60
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LOL. Most people also want power seats, windows, doorlocks, A/C, leather, defoggers, 5 star crash ratings, powertrains the will tow a small apartment building, 0-60mph in under 8 seconds and they want it quiet and to ride nice.



You want a 1991 1-ton truck that gets 22mpg, enjoy your de-rated diesel with none of the above features.
My best friend had a 92 with all those options but a 5 star crash test and 0-60 time. Ext. Cab long bed 4x4 auto loaded 21mpg with a teenager driving. (I was rocking my 6.9 Ford @18mpg)

If the last 20 years of development had been spent making this more efficient rather than meeting cafe standards, we would have this now. As it is, a new 6.7 crewcab 4x4 will nearly hit the 20mpg mark solely by ditching the DPF, EGR, etc..

A good friend works for Cummins in the after treatment section. They take the well designed and powerful engines from R&D, and choke them out to meet ridiculous standards, and try to retain as much power as they can.
LAME. How about we just put them on the road and enjoy them? Oh, that's right, we have to have these standards to push Chevy Volts out the door.

I understand working around the existing standards and regulations. That is the problem.

Without them, people would still buy the more efficient vehicles because it makes economic sense.

Just like horsepower wars, fuel milage wars will drive the efficiency up.
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