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Old December 22nd, 2011, 09:16 AM   #181
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A few questions, oh, Anointed One:

1. What makes the Volt junk?

2. With respect to any technology, it takes an investment of time and money
to bring reasonably priced products to market. Yes, batteries have been around since 1800 - and Henry Ford built his wife an electric car; not much of that matters today, as requirements are consistently changing. Why do you think the battery technology "isn't there"? - and if it isn't, why should we stop searching for better ways? With that reasoning, the 486/66 tower I bought for $2200 20 years ago would still be what people used today.

I mean - nobody will *ever* be able to fit more than 100,000 transistors on a computer chip. Don't you have a business degree? Come on, this is 100-level coursework here.
1. The price for what you get which is an econo shit box that performs the same as the cruz eco for half but the "hey I'm helping the enviormnent so lets feel good out myself" mentality that is keeping this going is amazing. I'd like to go back in time and pull up all the threads calling prius owners tree hugging hippies and enviroment killers cause of the destructing that takes place at the Nic plants and compare it to todays thought of "since we are making them it's all good in the 'hood!"

2. I gave up on it when you gave up on it the first time. Guess all the advancements weren't worth the time/money in the past so since you guys felt the need to crush it then I have a hard time with the great need now. . . I mean long term stragegy would have put you what 15 years ahead of the present? Nice work.

Thanks for comparing your electric car to an industry that has made advancements in a week that is equal to what you've been trying to do since Mr. Ford built his wife an electric car. . .
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 09:36 AM   #182
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1. The price for what you get which is an econo shit box that performs the same as the cruz eco for half but the "hey I'm helping the enviormnent so lets feel good out myself" mentality that is keeping this going is amazing. I'd like to go back in time and pull up all the threads calling prius owners tree hugging hippies and enviroment killers cause of the destructing that takes place at the Nic plants and compare it to todays thought of "since we are making them it's all good in the 'hood!"

2. I gave up on it when you gave up on it the first time. Guess all the advancements weren't worth the time/money in the past so since you guys felt the need to crush it then I have a hard time with the great need now. . . I mean long term stragegy would have put you what 15 years ahead of the present? Nice work.

Thanks for comparing your electric car to an industry that has made advancements in a week that is equal to what you've been trying to do since Mr. Ford built his wife an electric car. . .
It does not perform the same as the Eco Cruze, as the Volt allows you up to 40 miles with ZERO gasoline, and then after that you get the economy of the ECO Cruze (it is more stripped down that the Volt to my knowledge) The Volt is a Fully loaded car.

The EV1 was crushed/scrapped because they supposedly were costing GM a fortune to keep on the road, as they were GM owned vehicles. They were crushed to eliminate the liability of Joe Blow driving around in basically a prototype vehicle. Can you imagine if Joe Blow actually owned it, they would let Best Buy install a stereo and burn to the ground with the damn car then sue GM.

MUCH of the EV1 lessons were used when creating the Volt.

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Old December 22nd, 2011, 09:40 AM   #183
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I want my money back lol
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 09:53 AM   #184
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Ironically, his avatar is the grille of his -1 generation DTS...

Spoken like a stockbroker - no thought of the loing term, strategy, or positioning for the future, just the right now and near-term.

And while there was likely some government pressure to build the Volt, I think Lutz's forward-thinking product focus was behind a good deal of it. Government meddlers would've driven a product a whole lot more Nissan Leaf or Prius like (i.e. bare bones and "look at me cutesy/kooky" styling rather than the Volt's more stylish looks and upscale appointments.
Yes, 1st gen DTS was a great car with many advances that have trickled into the other business lines. To bad that GM has the lack of forsight to quit the Northstar and change to a pushrod V8 for the new CTS-V, other lines. With forsight they could have continued the development such as the FORD did with the Modular engine which has now become an amazing engine with great performance and MPGs. This once again is just from an outsider looking in.


Nice brainwashing on the stockbroker comments . . I mean since you read the media I'm sure you know we all took down the housing market and cause the current econ.

Edit: Does anyone know what Ford's getting for development or is it just GM that sucks off the taxpayer tit?
Since you guys are the "experts" I figure you might know . . . since you know all about all of the auto industry.

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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:02 AM   #185
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Yes, 1st gen DTS was a great car with many advances that have trickled into the other business lines. To bad that GM has the lack of forsight to quit the Northstar and change to a pushrod V8 for the new CTS-V. With forsight they could have continued the development such as FORD Modular and who now has an amazing engine with great performance and MPGs. This once again is just from an outsider looking in.

Nice brainwashing on the stockbroker comments . . I mean since you read the media I'm sure you know we all took down the housing market and cause the current econ.
Funny how the CTS-V with the supercharged LSA makes 100+ HP more and gets better MPGs than the old STS-V with the supercharged Northstar...
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:03 AM   #186
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Yes, 1st gen DTS was a great car with many advances that have trickled into the other business lines. To bad that GM has the lack of forsight to quit the Northstar and change to a pushrod V8 for the new CTS-V, other lines. With forsight they could have continued the development such as the FORD did with the Modular engine which has now become an amazing engine with great performance and MPGs. This once again is just from an outsider looking in.


Edit: Does anyone know what Ford's getting for development or is it just GM that sucks off the taxpayer tit?
Nice brainwashing on the stockbroker comments . . I mean since you read the media I'm sure you know we all took down the housing market and cause the current econ.
FYI, Ford got a hefty amount of money from TARP funds 1-2 years before the bailout which was a big reason why they had enough cash on hand to weather the storm. TARP loans don't have to be paid back either.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:05 AM   #187
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FYI, Ford got a hefty amount of money from TARP funds 1-2 years before the bailout which was a big reason why they had enough cash on hand to weather the storm. TARP loans don't have to be paid back either.
I want a TARP loan...
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:06 AM   #188
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I want a TARP loan...
Yea no shit.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:15 AM   #189
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Edit: Does anyone know what Ford's getting for development or is it just GM that sucks off the taxpayer tit?
All OEMs receive grants for engineering technology stuff, and massive abatements for manufacturing plants.

Likewise, in the similar calculations done in first article, the tax breaks on hybrids such as the fusion and escape are also considered 'taxpayer' money, for those who like to think that way.

Myself, working in a global company (HQ'd in Germany), most other foreign governments are doing much more.

Example: Not only does my mexican developement center have a per-hour engineering rate that is ~$60 an hour less than the US, but Mexican government regularly gives large grants to pay for tech equipment such as oscilloscopes, test chambers, etc. They do this because they understand that they are losing competativeness in the manufacturing sector to even lower cost Asian countries, and want to build tech knowledge more appropriate to move them up from 3rd world.

Example: Parts I've worked on in the Chinese market, recent examples being the Buick LaCrosse, Buick GL8 minivan, Chevy Malibu, require 2nd and 3rd tier sourcing from Chinese suppliers. The supply base at all levels is subsidized. One of our plants has recently been relocated to a hi tech economic/development zone in exchange for subsidies.

My experience in my other locations are the same. Those are my primary locations, but I work with Brasil (hello, government backed Ethanol programs), Romania, Spain, and Malaysia, as well as engineering in Australia and Germany.

Too many people in this country cry about unfair advantages other countries get, yet are too brainwashed to think that its bad if we somehow do the same. People are disgusted with topics like outsourcing and the financial/banking industry, yet those are simply natural progressions of weak hands off government.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:19 AM   #190
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Why did all of the hype about ethanol just kinda fizzle and go away?

I think I remember hearing something about how we couldn't grow enough to completely replace oil, but the media was sure hot and heavy about it then just went cold.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:21 AM   #191
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Funny how the CTS-V with the supercharged LSA makes 100+ HP more and gets better MPGs than the old STS-V with the supercharged Northstar...
And the 2v 4.6L sucked as well but Ford understood a long term strategy and contiuned developing the engine to what it is today while not having to be taken over/saved by the Government. Maybe you Tier1 guys should go work for a good company.

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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:22 AM   #192
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And the 2v 4.6L sucked as well but Ford understood a long term strategy and contiuned to the egine it is today while not having to be taken over. Maybe you Tier1 guys should go work for a good company.
Maybe you should stick to something you know too like the Bible and blowing Sova...
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:23 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
All OEMs receive grants for engineering technology stuff, and massive abatements for manufacturing plants.

Likewise, in the similar calculations done in first article, the tax breaks on hybrids such as the fusion and escape are also considered 'taxpayer' money, for those who like to think that way.

Myself, working in a global company (HQ'd in Germany), most other foreign governments are doing much more.

Example: Not only does my mexican developement center have a per-hour engineering rate that is ~$60 an hour less than the US, but Mexican government regularly gives large grants to pay for tech equipment such as oscilloscopes, test chambers, etc. They do this because they understand that they are losing competativeness in the manufacturing sector to even lower cost Asian countries, and want to build tech knowledge more appropriate to move them up from 3rd world.

Example: Parts I've worked on in the Chinese market, recent examples being the Buick LaCrosse, Buick GL8 minivan, Chevy Malibu, require 2nd and 3rd tier sourcing from Chinese suppliers. The supply base at all levels is subsidized. One of our plants has recently been relocated to a hi tech economic/development zone in exchange for subsidies.

My experience in my other locations are the same. Those are my primary locations, but I work with Brasil (hello, government backed Ethanol programs), Romania, Spain, and Malaysia, as well as engineering in Australia and Germany.

Too many people in this country cry about unfair advantages other countries get, yet are too brainwashed to think that its bad if we somehow do the same. People are disgusted with topics like outsourcing and the financial/banking industry, yet those are simply natural progressions of weak hands off government.
Amen.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 10:41 AM   #194
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Maybe you should stick to something you know too like the Bible and blowing Sova...
And know that these guys are hanging on since they cost to much but lets not really piss them off.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:02 AM   #195
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Wheee, lunchtime.

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Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
1. The price for what you get which is an econo shit box that performs the same as the cruz eco for half but the "hey I'm helping the enviormnent so lets feel good out myself" mentality that is keeping this going is amazing. I'd like to go back in time and pull up all the threads calling prius owners tree hugging hippies and enviroment killers cause of the destructing that takes place at the Nic plants and compare it to todays thought of "since we are making them it's all good in the 'hood!"
You'll never hear an environmental peep out of me - I am amazed people think an "Electric" car is so "clean". Those are people that know nothing about the electric power infrastructure of America and don't think of where the electricity comes from. Gee, sorta like you on the same subject. "OMG!!! batteries didn't work the first time Y R U wasting mai moneys on them again!?"

Until we have a majority of our power supplied by nuclear and NG, most electric cars will end up polluting more than a gasoline equivalent.

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Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
2. I gave up on it when you gave up on it the first time. Guess all the advancements weren't worth the time/money in the past so since you guys felt the need to crush it then I have a hard time with the great need now. . . I mean long term stragegy would have put you what 15 years ahead of the present? Nice work.

Thanks for comparing your electric car to an industry that has made advancements in a week that is equal to what you've been trying to do since Mr. Ford built his wife an electric car. . .
Please show an example of this claim with supporting proof. I see you've seen "Who Killed The Electric Car' and took in the rhetoric hook, line and sinker. I've explained this before in another thread on here, and it is based on common sense. Apparently you lack both an attention span that lasts longer than the common pond koi and it rather limited skills in thinking for itself.

GM produced just over 2200 EV-1 vehicles and leased them for pennies on the dollar - compared to what they cost to make (near $100,000 each). Near the end of the three year production run - AS BATTERY TECHNOLOGY ADVANCED - the range of the EV-1 doubled from 80 to 160 miles. However, at the same time the main impetus behind the development of an electric car slowly faded away. CARB's initial ZEV (zero emission vehicle) mandates were found to be unconstitutional and overturned.

So, with about 1500 total cars being leased by some of the most outspoken environmentalists, complaints were high when GM scrapped the program. Why scrap it? How long do you expect GM to absorb the huge loss-per-vehicle to satisfy less than a fraction of a percent of paying customers? The nineties were times of cheap gasoline and big profits - there was no reason to continue with the EV-1, as essentially paying people to buy your cars is not smart business sense.

So, at the time, there was no great cry for the EV-1 or anything similar and the government wasn't subsidizing it, so why throw money at something you're convinced isn't needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
Yes, 1st gen DTS was a great car with many advances that have trickled into the other business lines. To bad that GM has the lack of forsight to quit the Northstar and change to a pushrod V8 for the new CTS-V, other lines. With forsight they could have continued the development such as the FORD did with the Modular engine which has now become an amazing engine with great performance and MPGs. This once again is just from an outsider looking in.


Nice brainwashing on the stockbroker comments . . I mean since you read the media I'm sure you know we all took down the housing market and cause the current econ.

Edit: Does anyone know what Ford's getting for development or is it just GM that sucks off the taxpayer tit?
Since you guys are the "experts" I figure you might know . . . since you know all about all of the auto industry.
We know far more about the auto industry than you, thank you for continuing to demonstrate that. Also, why get rid of the northstar? Let's see, on one hand, produce a DOHC, all-aluminum V8 that contains more parts, more frictional losses and whose power output contradicts the torque curve people want in a big car....oh, and costs way more per-unit than a small block...

...or...

continue to develop a proven engine line that reuses some tooling, uses less parts and costs way less to build than a northstar? oh, and at the same time can equal and exceed the specific output of any northstar ever produced. BTW, did I mention it was cheaper to produce too? I did, but since I'm always restating the obvious for you, I've kinda started doing it out of habit.

Since you've mentioned it in a bad light, what is wrong with a "Pushrod V8"? I would be willing to bet you have no idea other than naive regurgitation of what auto magazines write. Because those guys are journalists, and know better than the people that have been building products for the last 100 years.


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Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
And the 2v 4.6L sucked as well but Ford understood a long term strategy and contiuned to the egine it is today while not having to be taken over. Maybe you Tier1 guys should go work for a good company.
With your admitted automotive engineering ignorance being confesed several times over, I would also like to know why you think the 2V 4.6L "sucked" and why the new offering from Ford is better, and why assume it is even remotely similar.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:04 AM   #196
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Maybe you should stick to something you know too like the Bible and blowing Sova...
He and Mike "broke up" - Drew got flat-out weird after college and I don't think they are really that close any longer.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:26 AM   #197
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Wheee, lunchtime.



You'll never hear an environmental peep out of me - I am amazed people think an "Electric" car is so "clean". Those are people that know nothing about the electric power infrastructure of America and don't think of where the electricity comes from. Gee, sorta like you on the same subject. "OMG!!! batteries didn't work the first time Y R U wasting mai moneys on them again!?"

Until we have a majority of our power supplied by nuclear and NG, most electric cars will end up polluting more than a gasoline equivalent.



Please show an example of this claim with supporting proof. I see you've seen "Who Killed The Electric Car' and took in the rhetoric hook, line and sinker. I've explained this before in another thread on here, and it is based on common sense. Apparently you lack both an attention span that lasts longer than the common pond koi and it rather limited skills in thinking for itself.

GM produced just over 2200 EV-1 vehicles and leased them for pennies on the dollar - compared to what they cost to make (near $100,000 each). Near the end of the three year production run - AS BATTERY TECHNOLOGY ADVANCED - the range of the EV-1 doubled from 80 to 160 miles. However, at the same time the main impetus behind the development of an electric car slowly faded away. CARB's initial ZEV (zero emission vehicle) mandates were found to be unconstitutional and overturned.

So, with about 1500 total cars being leased by some of the most outspoken environmentalists, complaints were high when GM scrapped the program. Why scrap it? How long do you expect GM to absorb the huge loss-per-vehicle to satisfy less than a fraction of a percent of paying customers? The nineties were times of cheap gasoline and big profits - there was no reason to continue with the EV-1, as essentially paying people to buy your cars is not smart business sense.

So, at the time, there was no great cry for the EV-1 or anything similar and the government wasn't subsidizing it, so why throw money at something you're convinced isn't needed?



We know far more about the auto industry than you, thank you for continuing to demonstrate that. Also, why get rid of the northstar? Let's see, on one hand, produce a DOHC, all-aluminum V8 that contains more parts, more frictional losses and whose power output contradicts the torque curve people want in a big car....oh, and costs way more per-unit than a small block...

...or...

continue to develop a proven engine line that reuses some tooling, uses less parts and costs way less to build than a northstar? oh, and at the same time can equal and exceed the specific output of any northstar ever produced. BTW, did I mention it was cheaper to produce too? I did, but since I'm always restating the obvious for you, I've kinda started doing it out of habit.

Since you've mentioned it in a bad light, what is wrong with a "Pushrod V8"? I would be willing to bet you have no idea other than naive regurgitation of what auto magazines write. Because those guys are journalists, and know better than the people that have been building products for the last 100 years.




With your admitted automotive engineering ignorance being confesed several times over, I would also like to know why you think the 2V 4.6L "sucked" and why the new offering from Ford is better, and why assume it is even remotely similar.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:28 AM   #198
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I will never be able to mf a person like you can mf a person
He is definitely a great mfer.
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:32 AM   #199
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I will never be able to mf a person like you can mf a person
Yeah...he does it tactfully. I'm more on the steveo "fuck your mother" lines of putting down an argument. LOL
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Old December 22nd, 2011, 11:36 AM   #200
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"OMG!!! batteries didn't work the first time Y R U wasting mai moneys on them again!?"
I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that most people think of batteries as the shitty AA batteries and stuff like the old NiCd RC cars that went 3mph for 2 minutes then took 8 hours to charge.

or

In other words...ignorance.

While at the hobby shop I had people that were flat out astounded that electric RC cars were better in every single performance aspect than nitro cars...except cost. And just like the Volt and other cars using that kind of technology it will be a win in that category as well.
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