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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:06 AM   #1
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Ever wonder how much money each chevy volt produced so far has cost taxpayers?

Tax incentives to force a car through government motors that people don't even want to buy...


http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle

By Tom Gantert | Dec. 21, 2011 Twitter Follow Tom Gantert on Twitter

Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned by the federal government.

The Volt subsidies flow through multiple companies involed in production. The analysis includes adding up the amount of government subsidies via tax credits and direct funding for not only General Motors, but other companies supplying parts for the vehicle. For example, the Department of Energy awarded a $105.9 million grant to the GM Brownstown plant that assembles the batteries. The company was also awarded approximately $106 million for its Hamtramck assembly plant in state credits to retain jobs. The company that supplies the Volt’s batteries, Compact Power, was awarded up to $100 million in refundable battery credits (combination tax breaks and cash subsidies). These are among many of the subsidies and tax credits for the vehicle.

It’s unlikely that all the companies involved in Volt production will ever receive all the $3 billion in incentives, Hohman said, because many of them are linked to meeting various employment and other milestones. But the analysis looks at the total value that has been offered to the Volt in different aspects of production – from the assembly line to the dealerships to the battery manufacturers. Some tax credits and subsidies are offered for periods up to 20 years, though most have a much shorter time frame.

GM has estimated they’ve sold 6,000 Volts so far. That would mean each of the 6,000 Volts sold would be subsidized between $50,000 and $250,000, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized.

If battery manufacturers awarded incentives to produce batteries the Volt may use are included in the analysis, the potential government subsidy per Volt increases to $256,824. For example, A123 Systems has received extensive state and federal support, and bid to be a supplier to the Volt, but the deal instead went to Compact Power. The $256,824 figure includes adding up the subsidies to both companies.

The $3 billion total subsidy figure includes $690.4 million offered by the state of Michigan and $2.3 billion in federal money. That’s enough to purchase 75,222 Volts with a sticker price of $39,828.

Additional state and local support provided to Volt suppliers was not included in the analysis, Hohman said, and could increase the level of government aid. For instance, the Volt is being assembled at the Poletown plant in Detroit/Hamtramck, which was built on land acquired by General Motors through eminent domain.

“It just goes to show there are certain folks that will spend anything to get their vision of what people should do,” said State Representative Tom McMillin, R-Rochester Hills. “It’s a glaring example of the failure of central planning trying to force citizens to purchase something they may not want. … They should let the free market make those decisions.”

“This might be the most government-supported car since the Trabant,” said Hohman, referring to the car produced by the former Communist state of East Germany.

According to GM CEO Dan Akerson, the average Volt owner makes $170,000 per year.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:11 AM   #2
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thats a pretty flawed statistic. Do you think every government funded dollar went towards the volt?

Do you have any idea how much design, developement and testing costs on any new product line, regardless if is the Volt or any other hybrid? The things learned from the Volt are used across numerous product lines, and witll continue to be used on GM product lines in the future.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:13 AM   #3
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Hell, I was upset enough with the tax credit you got and the free charging station DTE would provide if you bought one...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:16 AM   #4
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thats a pretty flawed statistic. Do you think every government funded dollar went towards the volt?

Do you have any idea how much design, developement and testing costs on any new product line, regardless if is the Volt or any other hybrid? The things learned from the Volt are used across numerous product lines, and witll continue to be used on GM product lines in the future.
Hmm... I disagree all though I do not have your experience. I think the lessons leanred from the ZR1 will be used across numerous product lines at a much greater rate then the Volt . . once again I am not an engineer but just an outsider so you're proably right but thats what I precieve.

What we have learned from the Volt is that people don't want it.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:34 AM   #5
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Hmm... I disagree all though I do not have your experience. I think the lessons leanred from the ZR1 will be used across numerous product lines at a much greater rate then the Volt . . once again I am not an engineer but just an outsider so you're proably right but thats what I precieve.

What we have learned from the Volt is that people don't want it.
Really? I see atleast a couple of them every day I'm out on the road.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:34 AM   #6
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Hmm... I disagree all though I do not have your experience. I think the lessons leanred from the ZR1 will be used across numerous product lines at a much greater rate then the Volt . . once again I am not an engineer but just an outsider so you're proably right but thats what I precieve.
]
Well, you're right about one thing: you're not an engineer / don't understand things like this.

I keep repeating myself in these threads, but I'll repeat it again for you and everyone else that doesn't pay attention to anything else outside of the rhetoric that comes from the press:

Check out some reading on the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements that are imposed.

If you look closely, there is no possible way we will meet future CO2 regulations (directly related to fuel economy) WITHOUT hybridization of some kind. The Volt, as a platform, offers great opportunity to further develop key technologies to meet the targets.

Battery design, technology, integration, safety, motor controls, advanced I.C.E. technology - all will benefit future production vehicles. Hell yes it is heavily subsidized! Without aid, manufacturers wouldn't be able to develop this technology entirely on their own. The public doesn't want it, however, the same public wants clean air and independence from foreign oil.

This is the direction industry is taking. Trust Bones and I when we say it isn't some weird conspiracy or handouts given freely. Steps have to be taken to get to that level of fuel economy, and the government in chipping in. BE HAPPY they are subsidizing the development.

How would you like it if there was an extra $5K tacked on to every car sold to cover the research?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:44 AM   #7
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Well, you're right about one thing: you're not an engineer / don't understand things like this.

I keep repeating myself in these threads, but I'll repeat it again for you and everyone else that doesn't pay attention to anything else outside of the rhetoric that comes from the press:

Check out some reading on the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements that are imposed.

If you look closely, there is no possible way we will meet future CO2 regulations (directly related to fuel economy) WITHOUT hybridization of some kind. The Volt, as a platform, offers great opportunity to further develop key technologies to meet the targets.

Battery design, technology, integration, safety, motor controls, advanced I.C.E. technology - all will benefit future production vehicles. Hell yes it is heavily subsidized! Without aid, manufacturers wouldn't be able to develop this technology entirely on their own. The public doesn't want it, however, the same public wants clean air and independence from foreign oil.
This is the direction industry is taking. Trust Bones and I when we say it isn't some weird conspiracy or handouts given freely. Steps have to be taken to get to that level of fuel economy, and the government in chipping in. BE HAPPY they are subsidizing the development.

How would you like it if there was an extra $5K tacked on to every car sold to cover the research?
You are right, the public doesn't want it. Not from the people that I know. Our IT guy has one and I think he likes it becuase it's a new techy thing. Other than him, I've never heard anyone say that they want one.

My belief is that if you were to ask Joe-consumer where he wants his subsidized money spent, he would rather it be in the Keystone pipeline and North American development of oil processing. Same with CAFE standards. I don't believe Joe-public agrees with this either.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:47 AM   #8
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Has anyone questioned why the cost of 3/4 ton trucks has sky rocketed, it is because the factories are building less in order to meet CAFE regulations
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:49 AM   #9
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You are right, the public doesn't want it. Not from the people that I know. Our IT guy has one and I think he likes it becuase it's a new techy thing. Other than him, I've never heard anyone say that they want one.

My belief is that if you were to ask Joe-consumer where he wants his subsidized money spent, he would rather it be in the Keystone pipeline and North American development of oil processing. Same with CAFE standards. I don't believe Joe-public agrees with this either.
I'd like to think I could agree with you. But unfortunately I think the green initiative and the lack of interest in drilling here, and making battery operated shit box's is leading the way in washington right now.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 09:59 AM   #10
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Has anyone questioned why the cost of 3/4 ton trucks has sky rocketed, it is because the factories are building less in order to meet CAFE regulations
This. A work truck is 40k anymore. this is bullshit.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:00 AM   #11
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You are right, the public doesn't want it. Not from the people that I know. Our IT guy has one and I think he likes it becuase it's a new techy thing. Other than him, I've never heard anyone say that they want one.

My belief is that if you were to ask Joe-consumer where he wants his subsidized money spent, he would rather it be in the Keystone pipeline and North American development of oil processing. Same with CAFE standards. I don't believe Joe-public agrees with this either.
Spot on.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:02 AM   #12
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My belief is that if you were to ask Joe-consumer where he wants his subsidized money spent, he would rather it be in the Keystone pipeline and North American development of oil processing. Same with CAFE standards. I don't believe Joe-public agrees with this either.
That's because the American public is very short sighted.

It doesn't matter how many different ways we figure out how to suck oil out of the earth its a finite resource. SOMEDAY it will be gone. It might not be in my life time, but it could be. No matter how little we sip on it someday that bucket will go empty. We would be stupid to ignore that.

The problem is the people in this country will contently go along for the next however many years driving gas hogs that get 10mpg while we exhaust every last drop of it then be like, "Wtf man, why didn't someone do something about this?" If you need any confirmation of how that could be possible reference the housing crisis...
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:05 AM   #13
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Another problem with the whole American drilling, pipeline, and processing thing is no one ever wants that in their back yard. So where do we do all of this at?

Do you want to look out your back window at a refinery? Or drive by an oil rig on Lake St. Clair? Or scoop oil sludge off your beach when some retard has an oopsie because no one has been doing their job making sure everything was up to snuff on that oil rig?

I'm far from a green person. But things need to be done responsibly and lately we have shown that does't seem to happen.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:19 AM   #14
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That's because the American public is very short sighted.

It doesn't matter how many different ways we figure out how to suck oil out of the earth its a finite resource. SOMEDAY it will be gone. It might not be in my life time, but it could be. No matter how little we sip on it someday that bucket will go empty. We would be stupid to ignore that.

The problem is the people in this country will contently go along for the next however many years driving gas hogs that get 10mpg while we exhaust every last drop of it then be like, "Wtf man, why didn't someone do something about this?" If you need any confirmation of how that could be possible reference the housing crisis...

Not true at all, we want the 22mpg 6000# 4x4 one ton trucks that we had in 1991.

We want those trucks further refined with better efficiency to get another three miles to the gallon. Three billion dollars would do this with ease.

How about factory port and polish head jobs on all factory engines? That would put thousands of people to work in a skilled trade, and create better efficiency.

Also, we have no idea if oil is a finite resource. We do know that most existing trucks will run on natural gas if needed, and the practices used to create a more efficient diesel or gas engine are directly correlated to natural gas.

Like electricity, many homes already have natural gas running to their homes. A charging station in your driveway would make the "hard to find" CNG not much of a problem anymore, at least for short trips like to work and back. This is one of the Volt's selling features. (Charging at home for short trips) A CNG truck could also be run on gasoline or diesel should you be out of range of your home fill station (same as the Volt).
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
thats a pretty flawed statistic. Do you think every government funded dollar went towards the volt?

Do you have any idea how much design, developement and testing costs on any new product line, regardless if is the Volt or any other hybrid? The things learned from the Volt are used across numerous product lines, and witll continue to be used on GM product lines in the future.
Please bring your concerns to James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy. He compiled the report.


Thank You.
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:20 AM   #16
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But things need to be done responsibly and lately we have shown that does't seem to happen.
When was this?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:26 AM   #17
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Well, you're right about one thing: you're not an engineer / don't understand things like this.

I keep repeating myself in these threads, but I'll repeat it again for you and everyone else that doesn't pay attention to anything else outside of the rhetoric that comes from the press:

Check out some reading on the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements that are imposed.

If you look closely, there is no possible way we will meet future CO2 regulations (directly related to fuel economy) WITHOUT hybridization of some kind. The Volt, as a platform, offers great opportunity to further develop key technologies to meet the targets.

Battery design, technology, integration, safety, motor controls, advanced I.C.E. technology - all will benefit future production vehicles. Hell yes it is heavily subsidized! Without aid, manufacturers wouldn't be able to develop this technology entirely on their own. The public doesn't want it, however, the same public wants clean air and independence from foreign oil.

This is the direction industry is taking. Trust Bones and I when we say it isn't some weird conspiracy or handouts given freely. Steps have to be taken to get to that level of fuel economy, and the government in chipping in. BE HAPPY they are subsidizing the development.

How would you like it if there was an extra $5K tacked on to every car sold to cover the research?

So why did they quit with the last electric car. If this was for the greater good you'd like they would have contiuned . . . hmmm...

Oh yeah, Cruz eco gets almost the same milage for half the price. Why are we producing volts again?

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:26 AM   #18
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When was this?
Are you fucking kidding me?


Google: BP oil spill

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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:32 AM   #19
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So why did they quit with the last electric car. If this was for the greater good you'd like they would have contiuned . . . hmmm...

Oh yeah, Cruz eco gets almost the same milage for half the price. Why are we producing volts again?

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
To me the Volt is a step in the direction we need to be heading. Its not the answer. But how often is the first of anything ever the final solution?
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Old December 21st, 2011, 10:39 AM   #20
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Oh, you mean the accident that happened outside of our country, under other countries laws, working on a well that we demand they have running sooner and for less money?

The one that wouldn't have happened if it had been an American company working on American land?
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