Firefighters watch house burn... again. - Page 2 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:47 AM   #21
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,288
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Bullshit. People have to learn that it costs money for a service. Obviously a millage to pay for full coverage of the entire area was voted down. So, the fire department did the next best thing......... offer coverage for a fee. No different than you choosing to only cover plpd versus full coverage on your car. YOUR CHOICE. You seem to be missing the point that they were there to make sure no one got physically hurt, not financially hurt.

Firefighters put their lives on the line every time they go into a fire situation. And in case you don't know it, they don't get paid very well. So for a lousy $75 per year you would choose to fukc THESE GUYS OVER while you expect them to save your posessions. Fuck that!

I am so tired of people expecting others to take care of them. $75 per year is $1.44 per week. You cannot tell me that anyone living in a home can't come up with that.
Jim is now hovering near the top of my "Smartest Guy I Know" list.

Public services are not a right. Its something we all pay for in our taxes and fees. Why should people who choose not to pay those fees, given the choice, get the same coverage as those who do?

Now if only we could somehow have this system adopted in Pontiac I wouldn't feel obligated to drive through there every morning to see my tax dollars at work.
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:48 AM   #22
Renegade II
Coil springs are for pens
 
Renegade II's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-01-06
Location: Frankenmuth, Mi.
Posts: 3,327
iTrader: (13)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Glad to see they showed up to protect the neighbors properties that paid the fees. Sucks to be the owners, but "No tickee, no laundry."

What is becoming a problem is municipalities that charge for their F.D.'s responding to crashes that involve people that are not their residents. I can understand if they recover costs to provide a service to a non local tax paying resident, but several around here (in business areas where 90% of the crashes are out of area people) have changed their F.D. policy to take advantage of their municipalities original intent. They now show up to all crashes where the car is immobile whether they are needed or not. They just show up to cut the battery cable or drop some kitty litter and make a $500-$1000 money grab for car owners wallet
Renegade II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:53 AM   #23
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 22,344
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Default

There is no moral obligation beyond making sure someone is safe. Property is different than human life. I can't shoot your dog because he is attacking my dog because dogs are property even though it makes perfect common sense.

Titanic was a movie. Did they really have gates? I don't know. Not my problem.

How many fire fighters do I know? If you knew me, you would consider that pretty funny.

Regarding the money side of it, I'm not so sure the fire chief (who is responsible for the budget) would look at it the same way.

Sympathy? Nope. You see, I'm one of those people who pays too much in taxes and am tired of those who don't, crying.
__________________
GLFWDA member since 1979.
Member Southern Michigan Rock Crawlers.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #24
Porter
.........................
 
Porter's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-11-07
Location: Romeo
Posts: 16,933
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default Hmmmmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post

Sympathy? Nope. You see, I'm one of those people who pays too much in taxes and am tired of those who don't, crying.
Yer MY hero

__________________
Dirty Minds Jeep Club

DMJC WEBSITE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
so yeah what Ross said...
Porter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:58 AM   #25
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,288
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Glad to see they showed up to protect the neighbors properties that paid the fees. Sucks to be the owners, but "No tickee, no laundry."

What is becoming a problem is municipalities that charge for their F.D.'s responding to crashes that involve people that are not their residents. I can understand if they recover costs to provide a service to a non local tax paying resident, but several around here (in business areas where 90% of the crashes are out of area people) have changed their F.D. policy to take advantage of their municipalities original intent. They now show up to all crashes where the car is immobile whether they are needed or not. They just show up to cut the battery cable or drop some kitty litter and make a $500-$1000 money grab for car owners wallet
What do you expect to happen when year after year housing values fall and therefore tax base falls with it? No one ever votes to add new millage to cover the cost of their public services and a lot of places have a hard time passing extensions of previous millage.

A lot of these new "B.S." charges and fees are a response to all of that.

I guess I kinda like the idea of a pay service. I would be willing to believe that if they only provided service to those who payed for it it would cost those who do pay less each year.

Just think about that whole uninsured motorist fee on your insurance.

I personally think we pay a pretty hefty rate for our taxes. And even though I'm sure I could go to the review board and have my taxes lowered I don't. I like the peace of mind seeing a bunch of bored police and a fire department that runs lights and sirens every time someone zorches a fart...
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 11:59 AM   #26
Medic8
You call, we haul.
 
Medic8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Southgate, MI
Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

IB4Socialismbecomesthetopic

But seriously, how hard would it be for them to say "you either pay your $75 every year, or you pay actual costs if an incident is to occur"? It's not that far of a stretch from the way some of our municipalities run in Michigan. There was a GL4x4 member no more than a month ago bitching about getting a bill for $600 from XXX County for showing up to an motor vehicle accident, because they weren't a resident of that county.

Whiterhino, your argument about fire departments having to do collections is kind of irrelevant. What's the difference between police protection, trash collection, sewer services, municipal services (library, parks, street maintenance, etc), schools, and fire protection? What grants that county the decision to provide one service versus another? If I stop paying my city taxes, will my city start keeping track of that, and stop providing police service to my house? Will I have to turn in all of my books back to the library?

No, those services continue whether I have paid for them or not. Sure, my house might get repossessed for back taxes, I might do jail time, but those services continue so long as I'm a resident of that city. So again, what makes fire protection that much different than all of the other services?

Now the thing that I'm curious about is how long the residents will allow the bonehead politicians who made this arrangement to stay in office. It seems to me like any time you have to take a basic city/county service like Fire away from the people and make it a pay-to-play operation, there has been a HUGE failure in regards to the city or county officials.
Medic8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:00 PM   #27
BooGTS
Boost Withdrawl
 
BooGTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-12-05
Location: Royal Oak
Posts: 2,685
iTrader: (28)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
There is no moral obligation beyond making sure someone is safe. Property is different than human life. I can't shoot your dog because he is attacking my dog because dogs are property even though it makes perfect common sense.

Titanic was a movie. Did they really have gates? I don't know. Not my problem.

How many fire fighters do I know? If you knew me, you would consider that pretty funny.

Regarding the money side of it, I'm not so sure the fire chief (who is responsible for the budget) would look at it the same way.

Sympathy? Nope. You see, I'm one of those people who pays too much in taxes and am tired of those who don't, crying.
Highlighted since ignorance is bliss and I don't have the time to fight that. I don't think that applies just to the Titanic, but mindset in general. And yes, they had gates in real life. As far as the ship part went, they were accurate to history as far as they knew at the time (gates were found closed at the wreck). They believed if you didn't pay up, you were a less of a human.
BooGTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #28
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,288
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

[QUOTE=fastrt6dakota;2873465But seriously, how hard would it be for them to say "you either pay your $75 every year, or you pay actual costs if an incident is to occur"?[/QUOTE]

Its impossible because no one would ever pay the fee and when something bad did happen to the poorest of the poor you would hear, "I'll pay anything, just save my house...by the way will you take a post dated check?"

A year ago our dog had a serious issue. The "procedure" to get her back on the straight and narrow was going to be very expensive. They required payment up front to even begin. I would have told them "money is no object, do whatever it takes, etc...". I'm sure everyone does and not everyone can come through with those promises. They do this because they are smart and they know emotional people don't think rationally.
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #29
BooGTS
Boost Withdrawl
 
BooGTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-12-05
Location: Royal Oak
Posts: 2,685
iTrader: (28)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Nobody would even be able to afford paying for a fire being put out to a large house. Taxes are like insurance in that a lot of people pay for a few people's housing burning just in case.
BooGTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #30
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,288
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Also...

If you can't afford to pay the $75 a year fee so your house doesn't burn to the ground maybe you shouldn't own a house.
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:12 PM   #31
JohnnyJ
Low Range Drifter
 
JohnnyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Hartland, MI
Posts: 6,373
iTrader: (38)
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WSU JK View Post
The fee is not covered by the taxes because the fire department belongs to the residents/tax payers of the city of South Fulton. The property in question was located outside of the city limits. As a service, the city of South Fulton offers fire protection to properties outside the city limits for an annual fee of $75. The property owners in this case decided, for whatever reason, to not pay the fee and therefore were not entitled to the services. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

The firefighters arriving but basically only monitoring the situation does not bother me either. They arrived on the scene and ensured that the fire did not spread to neighboring homes (who may have paid the fee and been entitled to services) and that no body was put in danger. The home owners may have entered the burning home but the article doesn't state what the exact situation of the fire was at the time the entered the home or whether or not the fire department had arrived yet on scene when they entered. Also, contrary to what the article says, the homeowners were not "Forced" to enter the burning home. Property is replaceable, nobody had a gun to their head telling them to enter. Additionally, had the firefighters taken it upon themselves to fight the blaze, they could be opening themselves up to potential liabilities if one of their members were injured (the city's insurance plan might decide not to cover a firefighter who was injured battling a fire they were not authorized to fight).

At some point somebody will probably argue that the family should have been able to pay the fee on the scene. The counter argument is that this is unfair to the tax payers of the City of South Fulton and the fire department. These parties have forgone the revenue from the fee and any potential interest it may have earned and the additional services that the city/fire department could provide with those dollars. Non-city residents who paid the fee when it was originally due have also forgone the $75 and the interest that they might have earned on it had they known they could just not pay the fee and wait until an actual emergency. Allowing non-residents to pay the fee at the time of the fire presents a moral hazard for the fire department because so many non-residents may decide to not pay the fee until an emergency arises that the fire department can no longer adequately provide services to those who have paid the fee when it was due.
Agree completely.

cliff notes for the reading challenged.

1. No pay = no help
2. they were there to make sure it didn't affect others property who did pay
3. No pay when you need it, because no one would pay until they needed it.
__________________
Neither Skinny Nor Pretty DEAK Racing 4517 Ultra 4 Mod Class Rig
Surviving Project Car Hell - We have all been there
JohnnyJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:13 PM   #32
Medic8
You call, we haul.
 
Medic8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Southgate, MI
Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
Its impossible because no one would ever pay the fee and when something bad did happen to the poorest of the poor you would hear, "I'll pay anything, just save my house...by the way will you take a post dated check?"
So is $75 really the cost of a fire call? If you figure four firefighters making $18 an hour show up to the call, there's $72 per hour right there. So they better not stay on scene for more than an hour. They better not bring any gear with them either. Either that, or the $75 is really an arbitrary number established as a total cost split among all of those who the service will be provided to. It's ridiculous, honestly, to expect the citizens to shoulder the burden of a failed budget, all under the threat of losing their safety, their possessions, and their home.

I get what you're saying. What's done is done, they gambled their homestead and all of their belongings on a $75 fee and lost. However, to say that someone deserves to lose everything else they have worked for because of that indiscretion is not only cruel and inhumane, but asinine as well.

I can guarantee that if any of the municipalities of Clarkston, West Bloomfield, or any other place where our members reside decided that they were going to make you pay a fee to continue the usage of a service you were promised when you moved in, you'd all be burning effigies of your mayors on the steps of city hall.
Medic8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:31 PM   #33
JohnnyJ
Low Range Drifter
 
JohnnyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Hartland, MI
Posts: 6,373
iTrader: (38)
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
It's ridiculous, honestly, to expect the citizens to shoulder the burden of a failed budget, all under the threat of losing their safety, their possessions, and their home.
Who pays for it then? the President? the Monarch? God? Santa Claus?

To help you out -the USA runs by a "government of the people, by the people, for the people."

Somebody pays, that's what taxes are for. If the firefighting service isn't covered by taxes, then it's up to the person to pay. They were sent a bill, they didn't pay. It's no surprise to them, they got a bill and ignored it.

Does it suck. Yes. But that's life.
__________________
Neither Skinny Nor Pretty DEAK Racing 4517 Ultra 4 Mod Class Rig
Surviving Project Car Hell - We have all been there
JohnnyJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:33 PM   #34
SweetLeah
<3's Ridin' Dirty
 
SweetLeah's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-15-07
Location: Oakland County
Posts: 2,869
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

I fully support these firefighters standing by, not fighting the fire, because no lives were in danger.

I totally agree that with this fee imposed, accepting money on the scene would cause the fire fighters to become a "pay as you go" service, which is totally unacceptable. How is that fair to the fire department that requires a budget or to the tax payers that are paying for their services in advance?

My only concern is this:

What happens when there IS someone inside of the house and the firefighters outside don't know there is a life in immediate danger?

What happens when the fire fighter shows up to his buddies house and cant put out the fire because his buddy didn't pay the fee?

What happens when the book keeper screws up and didn't record the fee payment properly?
SweetLeah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #35
Ebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: MI
Posts: 3,396
iTrader: (8)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
If I stop paying my city taxes, will my city start keeping track of that, and stop providing police service to my house? Will I have to turn in all of my books back to the library?

No, those services continue whether I have paid for them or not. Sure, my house might get repossessed for back taxes, I might do jail time, but those services continue so long as I'm a resident of that city. So again, what makes fire protection that much different than all of the other services?
You missed the fact that these people lived outside the city, so they don't pay those taxes, which is where the $75/year option for fire response comes from. The people who do live in the city and pay those city taxes shouldn't have to pay to support those who don't reside in the city.
Ebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:44 PM   #36
Ridin Dirty
kixx007 wants to be me
 
Ridin Dirty's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-11-07
Location: Metamora,Mi.
Posts: 8,938
iTrader: (149)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebs View Post
You missed the fact that these people lived outside the city, so they don't pay those taxes, which is where the $75/year option for fire response comes from. The people who do live in the city and pay those city taxes shouldn't have to pay to support those who don't reside in the city.
I must have missed the part in the article that people keep referring to that said these people pay a different tax amount than the residents of the town where the fire department resides.

I am in no way saying that I believe they deserve a service that they have not paid for.
__________________
"It's all good. We've caught a lot nicer shit than this on fire"
Ridin Dirty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #37
Ebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: MI
Posts: 3,396
iTrader: (8)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
So is $75 really the cost of a fire call? If you figure four firefighters making $18 an hour show up to the call, there's $72 per hour right there. So they better not stay on scene for more than an hour. They better not bring any gear with them either. Either that, or the $75 is really an arbitrary number established as a total cost split among all of those who the service will be provided to. It's ridiculous, honestly, to expect the citizens to shoulder the burden of a failed budget, all under the threat of losing their safety, their possessions, and their home.

I get what you're saying. What's done is done, they gambled their homestead and all of their belongings on a $75 fee and lost. However, to say that someone deserves to lose everything else they have worked for because of that indiscretion is not only cruel and inhumane, but asinine as well.
A small percentage of people who pay for the service actually use it.

It's the same principle why an insurance company can offer millions of dollars of coverage for a few bucks a month, they're making money on the chance most will never have to use it.

I'm sure it killed those firefighters to stand there and watch.

Last edited by Ebs; December 7th, 2011 at 12:59 PM.
Ebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 01:51 PM   #38
kerryann
German cars are hot
 
kerryann's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield
Posts: 11,446
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
So is $75 really the cost of a fire call? If you figure four firefighters making $18 an hour show up to the call, there's $72 per hour right there. So they better not stay on scene for more than an hour. They better not bring any gear with them either. Either that, or the $75 is really an arbitrary number established as a total cost split among all of those who the service will be provided to. It's ridiculous, honestly, to expect the citizens to shoulder the burden of a failed budget, all under the threat of losing their safety, their possessions, and their home.

I get what you're saying. What's done is done, they gambled their homestead and all of their belongings on a $75 fee and lost. However, to say that someone deserves to lose everything else they have worked for because of that indiscretion is not only cruel and inhumane, but asinine as well.

I can guarantee that if any of the municipalities of Clarkston, West Bloomfield, or any other place where our members reside decided that they were going to make you pay a fee to continue the usage of a service you were promised when you moved in, you'd all be burning effigies of your mayors on the steps of city hall.
How can you do that when the citizens of those area vote down paying for the services? You have the right to get out and vote for millages. When you and your neighbors vote not to have services, and then you don't pay the $75 fee can you really say it's not your fault?
I would love to not have car insurance and only pay the premiums when I actually get in a car accident too, but that's not the way it works. My $600 a year doesn't cover the whole liability of my vehicle, so the agencies are collecting that from a lot of people assuming only a small percentage will actually use the coverage.
kerryann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #39
kerryann
German cars are hot
 
kerryann's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield
Posts: 11,446
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetLeah View Post
I fully support these firefighters standing by, not fighting the fire, because no lives were in danger.

I totally agree that with this fee imposed, accepting money on the scene would cause the fire fighters to become a "pay as you go" service, which is totally unacceptable. How is that fair to the fire department that requires a budget or to the tax payers that are paying for their services in advance?

My only concern is this:

What happens when there IS someone inside of the house and the firefighters outside don't know there is a life in immediate danger? Sued
What happens when the fire fighter shows up to his buddies house and cant put out the fire because his buddy didn't pay the fee? Fight
What happens when the book keeper screws up and didn't record the fee payment properly? Sued
see above
kerryann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2011, 01:56 PM   #40
mschaffer66
Senior Member
 
mschaffer66's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 9,288
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetLeah View Post
I fully support these firefighters standing by, not fighting the fire, because no lives were in danger.

I totally agree that with this fee imposed, accepting money on the scene would cause the fire fighters to become a "pay as you go" service, which is totally unacceptable. How is that fair to the fire department that requires a budget or to the tax payers that are paying for their services in advance?

My only concern is this:

What happens when there IS someone inside of the house and the firefighters outside don't know there is a life in immediate danger? BBQROTFLMAO

What happens when the fire fighter shows up to his buddies house and cant put out the fire because his buddy didn't pay the fee? Buddy says he fucked his wife then Fight

What happens when the book keeper screws up and didn't record the fee payment properly?Surprize Butt Seckz

Kerry's responses weren't fun...

If I were this guy's neighbor I would have cranked up the stereo with some Bloodhound Gang


Actually I wouldn't have. I would have just taken pictures and posted them on Facebook.
mschaffer66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.50040 seconds with 81 queries