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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:53 AM   #101
cerial
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadcooper55 View Post
Could you do a gear reduction box before the t case like northwest fab makes?
I know I looked at a klune divorced box. There was some major reason why I dismissed it. I will need to look over my notes later tonight.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #102
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Wow. I never would have thought I would say this, but you know your stuff. This is going to turn out just like you described and designed it to be. Subscribed. One small tip, less typing more tacking. I really like the fact that the door bars are at a good comfy height for an arm rest. Its those types of details that are usually lacking in a traditional type of buggy build where they are going for looks and performance. Keep on diggin!
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:01 PM   #103
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Found out why I did not want to use the klune.

I reduce the forces by half at low speeds while maintaining a higher torque at higher speeds by having the .75/1 transfer case and a .72 overdrive. The 2.7 klune would get rid of the .72 overdrive and only give me a 2.0/1 ratio. I can not use the 4.0/1 the engine and transmission would grenade it. The klune moves the engine out of the power band. I would need to run a 3.5 something ratio to keep the engine happy and only end up with a 34/1 craw.

I need to talk to some people but I think I am going to tear into the brownie and change it back into a 2.0/1 unit. The 2.0 unit run through the .75/1 transfer case will give me a 1.5/1 low. But by using the brownie I have the .72 high which will let me have a decent craw ratio. Then I will just run between a 6.5 and 7/1 ratio. The 7.0 gives me a 69/1 craw. My top speed at 3000rpm will be around 83 which is enough and should keep me out of trouble. I will be able to go from 20 to 60 with a single 3/4 shift making the axle ratio still practical for street use.

In no way will I hurt the brown lipe, transfer case, or any of the u joints. If something goes it is going to be the ring and pinion teeth or something else within the axle. If I build the axle with that in mind I should be able to lay my foot into it without concern.
The down side is that the drive shaft and pinion will be spinning at 5133 rpm at 75. This is still totally within the limits of the seals and bearings I will just need to get the shafts balanced at these speeds.



Enough chatter, I'm going to go all silent on this thread until I have some actual build junk to show instead of BS chatter. Let some of the people with some actual skill get up here.
Thanks for looking.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by cerial View Post
Trimmed down as much as I can get(I replaced the 1/8 steel with 1/16 steel in many spots). I have 5230 fully enclosed.

Now 2296 of that is the trussed axles, the tires, the wheels, and the spare.

So I am looking at this page. http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...le_weights.htm

Is that right dana 60 axles are only 260 and 305?? 565 for both? That seems light as heck.


I am figuring 720 front and 740 rear(with disk breaks) for the 2.5 ton axles without any trussing. 1460

That's a 895 difference.

Then this thing was meant to run on steel wheels and 35's. right around 400 pounds
The 40" tires and wheels(and spare) for the 2.5 are 804 pounds
That's a 404 difference.

1299 total from a 2.5 ton to a dana 60.

Running a dana 60 would give me a 3931 total weight.

OK I have been looking at this axle thing all wrong. Thanks for slapping some sense into me.
That seems light for the D60s, especially a steering one. I assume you've seen a Dana 70 before, and a GM 14 bolt. Do you think that 14 bolts weighs 250 lbs more than a Dana 70? No. So that ought to tell you how accurate that chart is.


When I have seen very detailed weight threads, people can get a lightweight 60-9 front into the low 300s. I think any steering D60 is going to be 450 and up. I think the unit bearing ones are the lightest, and the full spindle and hub ones are above that. The brakes, hubs, knuckles, etc are a lot of weight. Make sure to account for the weight of steering components (tie rod, etc), as they add up also.

This thread might help you some...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...09-weight.html

I typically see sometihng about 550 front/450 rear in terms of 1 tons, weight wise.

Last edited by Haggar; January 28th, 2013 at 02:11 PM.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #105
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The cab has no real cross bracing at this point. No gussets either. It will have them though. I need to fit the motor in place to see exactly where to put them.
The roof and two-piece floor are both 1/8 thick plates and will further strengthen the cage. It is more about being able to run this and wash it out with a hose. The roof is because I hate pulling dents out of the roof and expect a few rocks to hit this. The roof plate alone is 90 pounds. It is heavy, but will never leak. When the tires start going towards the sky I will not need to worry about a branch or rock coming through the roof.

I am waiting for my transfer case to be finished. I need it to see how it affects the passenger side. The transfer case is located according to the front axle. So I need to find a 2.5 and make sure everything is dead-on there before placing the transfer case. I have rough estimates and a lot of room to play with. But until I have everything in place I am holding off the floor.
These is tons of I can do to the cage still. Like installing the windshield inner and outer plate, installing the doors, installing all the door tracks, installing the roof bracing.
Right now I am focusing on the 472 and mating it to the 465. I am playing phone tag with this guy from C.A.D. Company. Cad500parts.com
I am getting advice from his years of experience on what parts to use with this engine. The damn flywheel is not cheap. When it comes to the clutch I can use as much advice as I can get. Finding a clutch that will not slip, provide good street feel, and work between 700 and 3000 is becoming a pain.
I made the clutch very easy to replace on this. Still I do not want to resurface the flywheel every 10k because I am constantly frying a low dollar single disk. On the other hand I do not want to install a seven hundred dollar clutch. Only to have it become an on/off clutch. It is really a very important decision so I am taking my time.

The engine to transmission, oil upgrade, intake upgrade, dui upgrade, propane kit, timing set/cover upgrade, water pump upgrade, 6 rib pulleys, and all accessories including hydraulic aid pump and kit. I am looking to toss around $3500 into this beast to get it up to par. Considering I stole the engine and 400 transmission at $350 and the power of the final product I am ok dumping cash into making this already great engine better. Closer to the end I will need to make some tappet cover following headers to gain clearance around the many things I only have roughly placed. Until then I will use the stock (heavy) manifolds to make sure I have enough room.

Update up to this point.
I bought a 2.5 Rockwell manual from Ouverson to learn more about these. This will help me build some light weight mock up axles accurately.

I should have parts to mate the engine to the transmission in the mail here in the next week. Like I said I need to look closer at the clutch. Once I talk with the guy at CAD Company concerning the flywheel a clutch kit will also be in the mail. Everything should be at the house by the end of February which is when I plan on returning. Hopefully, it will be a bit warmer and I can get more done on the cage.
I've heard of some issues dealing with CAD CO. Give the guys at MTS(Maximum Torque Specialties) a call.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 06:51 AM   #106
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cerial -by chance, are you tring to build 1 of these ?

not much articulation, but looks to be awesome on thin ice

http://www.wimp.com/homebuilt/
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Old February 9th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #107
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http://www.gocms.com/products.ht

Just thought you should see this
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Old February 9th, 2013, 08:48 AM   #108
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http://www.gocms.com/products.ht

Just thought you should see this
Link does not work
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Old February 9th, 2013, 08:54 AM   #109
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http://www.gocms.com/products.html

Damn I phone
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Old March 19th, 2013, 06:24 AM   #110
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Update: The transfer case showed up.

Front


Rear


Flange


That's a CD


Distance between rear flanges
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadcooper55 View Post
http://www.gocms.com/products.ht

Just thought you should see this

Yes, the. suspension will auto level like that. I am using straight axles and air bags. So no camber issues. The air bags can be inflated to level from 4 to 22" tall. The suspension is limted by the U joints and compunded by the fact both axles are PS drop.


The cab will be able to drop down to 2-4" off the ground making entry very easy. I am using very large ports and a combination of compotents to make the leveling function damn near instanious to keep traction at all times.


The point is to have traction at 3 of the wheels at all times instead of just two. When I hit a log the wheel will rise lessening pressure at that one wheel while the other 3 maintain full pressure. In a normal sprung suspension when that one wheel hits the pressure is increased at that wheel lifting the cab and lessening pressure at 2 wheels while the wheel at the opisite corner gains pressure.


I of course will have a manual control to inflate the bags in situations where the cab drags. Like I said before this is not a crawer and that should be the only case of the cab dragging.


Despite auto leveling and having manual control there is not any computer or silionoids. I have 3' snow, ice, freezing temps, deep mud, logs and rocks under 1' in mind with high speed tossed in for fun.


But, more on that later.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #112
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Are you planning on constantly pumping and relieving pressure as the terrain changes or do you have it naturally flowing from airbag to airbag?
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Old March 21st, 2013, 06:47 AM   #113
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We need more progress pics and maybe some schematics of the leveling system.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by chadcooper55 View Post
Are you planning on constantly pumping and relieving pressure as the terrain changes or do you have it naturally flowing from airbag to airbag?
The system needs to dump and inflate very fast to work how I want it to. So, while I know it is inefficient I will not be able to share the air. Believe me I tried and tried to make it transfer from one side to the other. It simply is to slow.

I am using 2 york air compressors feeding a series of air tanks mounted under the driver and passenger linked in conjunction. I am planning on between 21 to 28 gallons of high pressure air in reserve. I may be able to fit another two small tanks under the passenger side but will not know until I actually have the axles. There is also room for tanks in the overall design to be installed under the 2 propane tanks for another 16 gallons. These high pressure tanks feed two 2 way manual regulators which control front and rear pressure.

The front has a solid mounted 3 gallon accumulator with 16 ports out. The rear has the same accumulator.
The system levels by use of 32 3/8" port instant height control valves 8 per corner. I am using 3/8 because it is more popular then 1/2 and can be bought anywhere. These are mounted high to avoid dirt grime and whatever. 8 of them share a common rod which runs to a shock mount on the axle. The 8 ports (3") feed the four 1/2" ports on the two bags at each corner.

The controls are very simple.
Inside the cab I have front and rear 2" 2 way ball valve mounted after the regulators. At each corner between the bag ports and the height control valves I have a manifold with a 3 way 2" ball valve on the end. I have 4 levers running cables to the corners to operate these 3 way valves. There are another 4 levers under the first four for off road that control the height of the height control valve blocks.
To dump all four corners I will turn the 2 way ball valves to closed locking the high pressure air in the tanks. Then I will throw the levers controlling the 4 way ball valves up opening them and dropping the air. When I go to inflate I will throw the levers up closing the 3 ways then open the 2 ways inflating the low pressure system fast enough for me to go without waiting on tanks. Yet, it will be slow enough that I will not actually "hop".

The manifolds that house the 3 way ball valves are mounted between the upper and lower bags putting them between 20 and 32" above the bottom of the tire at all times. This is done to feed the top and bottom bags evenly while keeping them high as possible.

Off road use height control :
Under normal driving conditions I will never need to do the following. The system will instantly level and not require any attention while driving.
I should have around 20" of clearance at many times excluding axle height.

If I want to drop the front suspension I will simply shut off the front 2 way then flip the front 3 way levers open. The rear suspension will increase pressure slightly trying to level when I do this but not much.
Dropping the rear suspension is done the same way.

To inflate or drop a corner I will push one of the four smaller off road levers which will push one of the four height control blocks up or down 1/2" which is enough to have the height control valves inflate or dump that one corner.

The levers will have a lock setting to prevent the height control from moving when hitting potholes. To further prevent it from moving I will install a bolt to be removed for off road use only.

This will be used when the system has auto leveled dropping one side completely putting that side of the cab into the dirt. I will be able to inflate that side or corner forcing the cab up until I am on more level ground where I will let the system auto level.

It may seem like I am over complicating it by using levers, cables, and ball valves. But I am simply looking at it from a reliability standpoint. I do not want to put electronic dump valves in mud and ice. The ball valves are not only very cheap to replace but they are stupid reliable.
This suspension system is designed so if something does down and being able to fix it out of state. I will carry a 2" 3 way valve in the glove box and a extra instant height control valve. But, if I need to I can find a 3 way at many plumbing stores and a instant height control valve at any truck stop. The few flexible lines will all be hydraulic and covered to prevent uv and trail damage.

It is far from perfect I know. The cost is actually similar to running coil overs. But, it will be able to take massive amounts of abuse without needing constant maintenance. Everything on the system is very cheap to fix and maintain. Most importantly it allows for easy entry and exit. I have had trucks with 9" of lift before. It is a chore to get in and out of those and gets old fast. There is nothing wrong with a lifted truck. But, if I can get the height without climbing in or jumping out I will.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #115
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Fascinating. I can't wait to see this built. The amount of math and engineering going into this is beyond most internet builds.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #116
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If you are in an off camber situation and your rig is leaning to the passengers side is it going to relieve the pressure in the passengers side bags to even the pressure out between the sides? Have you ever thought about using pressure switches and solenoid valves instead of regulators? A regulator isn't going to bleed through nearly as fast as a solenoid. Have you checked the cfh that the regulator will flow compared to the line size? With a series of pressure switches and solenoids everything would be push button instead of dealing with leaky ball valves. How much pressure are you running in your tanks? Who is building the tanks for you? Don't just rely on a pressure switch to turn off your compressors, make sure you have a couple relief valves on there. If something bad happened you are sitting on a big ass bomb.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #117
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I am still trying to find a regulatior. This one is my current option running 2 of these.

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/...600/p9515.html


Ingersol makes a 2" one that would be perfect. It flows almost twice the cfm as the one above and is fully adjustable. But, everyone I have asked about it quotes me over 2k. I am hoping to find one used somewhere.



There will Bel blowoffs after the tanks and between them. I had a line rupture before because I relied on a pressure reg only. Thanks for looking out with the good safety tip.


The thing levels by relieving pressure. So, if the drivers side is tipping towards the ground the passenger side will drop air to keep it level. It can do this until it fully deflated with the posiblity of leveling to the point where it will bottom out.


The ball valves will leak out over a few days. Trapping air is more so I don,t need to wait for the thing to inflate fully every time I park.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #118
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pics!?
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Old March 27th, 2013, 09:16 AM   #119
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I'm just happy you finally gave up on using a Spicer 18 T-case for anything more than a paper weight
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Old March 27th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #120
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What are you using to tell when the rig is level? You can't do that with just regulators on the bags. It will work opposite. Also remember that most regulators only work one direction, they will free flow back the opposite direction of the flow. I can't open the link because my Internet sucks out here to see what the specs on that regulator are.
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Last edited by chadcooper55; March 27th, 2013 at 09:30 AM.
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