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Old November 19th, 2011, 11:11 PM   #21
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Why is it that after god gives someone a disease or genetic defect and it takes a team of doctors and surgeons with millions of dollars in equipment and decades of combined training to fix it, people say its a miracle and thank god?
Maybe it has to do with everyone thinking god is the one giving the disease .I mean if
It is god handing out the said sickness wouldn't he be the one to thank if it goes away?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 04:51 AM   #22
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Because when he comes back those that haven't accept him as savior will not be able to be with God. AKA, Will go to hell. He's waiting for as many people as possible to accept him.

Sin is what separates us from God. By pure definition (theological) Sin is the absence of God. When we are sinning, we are deciding to EXCLUDE God from that part of our life. Jesus gave us the ability take care of that separation and be with God. Both now, and in eternity.

Once agian, It's not God being mean, It's God Waiting and showing mercy to those who have not yet taken care of that separation.
Ive been around this argument (in general, not specifically yours) on the net for going on 6 years now.

One question.... Well two actually....

Which God is coming back and how do I know the one presented to me is the "right" one?

And why does one need to "accept" God into their lives in order to be saved if they are already leading moral and productive lives?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 03:33 PM   #23
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Ive been around this argument (in general, not specifically yours) on the net for going on 6 years now.

One question.... Well two actually....

Which God is coming back and how do I know the one presented to me is the "right" one?
Jesus is coming back. He is one part, or role, of the God of the universe. I don't think I can prove to you that he's 'the right one' in a textual format. Or even in person. I do find, however, that he usually presents himself to you.

rough paraphrase " God's unseen characteristics can be seen through his creation so no man is with out excuse. "

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And why does one need to "accept" God into their lives in order to be saved if they are already leading moral and productive lives?
That's because, if we go by Christian theology, Our standards are not high enough. God's standard is perfection. No amount of Good dead or productivity can meet those standards. The only way, set out by God in the OT, is to atone for our short commings (sins) and try and live upright and holy lives. Jesus, in the NT, fullfilled that atonement by dying on the cross. The OT sacrifices were imperfect sacrifices. They only atoned for one deed or one sin. Jesus Lived a perfect life which made him a perfect sacrifice. All our sins taken care of by him on that day.

God's done 11 of the 12 steps. Accepting Christs sacrifice and not living open in defiance of God allows us to be with God both here and for eternity.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 03:36 PM   #24
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God's done 11 of the 12 steps. Accepting Christs sacrifice and not living open in defiance of God allows us to be with God both here and for eternity.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 05:31 PM   #25
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Jesus is coming back. He is one part, or role, of the God of the universe. I don't think I can prove to you that he's 'the right one' in a textual format. Or even in person. I do find, however, that he usually presents himself to you.

rough paraphrase " God's unseen characteristics can be seen through his creation so no man is with out excuse. "



That's because, if we go by Christian theology, Our standards are not high enough. God's standard is perfection. No amount of Good dead or productivity can meet those standards. The only way, set out by God in the OT, is to atone for our short commings (sins) and try and live upright and holy lives. Jesus, in the NT, fullfilled that atonement by dying on the cross. The OT sacrifices were imperfect sacrifices. They only atoned for one deed or one sin. Jesus Lived a perfect life which made him a perfect sacrifice. All our sins taken care of by him on that day.

God's done 11 of the 12 steps. Accepting Christs sacrifice and not living open in defiance of God allows us to be with God both here and for eternity.
With 11 out of 12 being complete, that means things as we know it are coming to an end.
Will this happen in our life time? Only God knows.
Prophecy tell about things to happen during the end times and we are getting closer.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:31 PM   #26
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I believe that God and Jesus are the same entity. To me, God is a life force in the Universe that we really don't understand. I feel the Bible is not a historical record but in fact the result of numerous interpretations and idealisms from those before us who were struggling with the concept of God. I feel that all religions are right in some ways and all religions are wrong in some ways.

Could it be possible, considering the size of the Universe, that we are mearly a small part of the total picture of what God does?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:34 PM   #27
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I believe that God and Jesus are the same entity. To me, God is a life force in the Universe that we really don't understand. I feel the Bible is not a historical record but in fact the result of numerous interpretations and idealisms from those before us who were struggling with the concept of God. I feel that all religions are right in some ways and all religions are wrong in some ways.


Could it be possible, considering the size of the Universe, that we are mearly a small part of the total picture of what God does?
I like the way you think.

Most of the time.

Christmas is coming up, so yeah. cadycane
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Old November 20th, 2011, 08:50 PM   #28
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I believe that God and Jesus are the same entity. To me, God is a life force in the Universe that we really don't understand. I feel the Bible is not a historical record but in fact the result of numerous interpretations and idealisms from those before us who were struggling with the concept of God. I feel that all religions are right in some ways and all religions are wrong in some ways.
I choose to believe differently. If you think that Jesus was part of that entity then does that mean you don't have beef with people that follow his teachings? Not the Religion though.

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Could it be possible, considering the size of the Universe, that we are mearly a small part of the total picture of what God does?
Could be, but what does that mean if we are one of the most important parts of his plan?
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Old November 20th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #29
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Jesus is coming back. He is one part, or role, of the God of the universe. I don't think I can prove to you that he's 'the right one' in a textual format. Or even in person. I do find, however, that he usually presents himself to you.

rough paraphrase " God's unseen characteristics can be seen through his creation so no man is with out excuse. "
Wars have been and are currently being waged over this... I do believe it is an issue that must be defined and clarified. In order for someone such as myself that neither believes or disbelieves the existence of any Deity, if you want me to actually believe he is so, then show me how accepting him will lead me to live a better life.

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That's because, if we go by Christian theology, Our standards are not high enough. God's standard is perfection. No amount of Good dead or productivity can meet those standards. The only way, set out by God in the OT, is to atone for our short commings (sins) and try and live upright and holy lives. Jesus, in the NT, fullfilled that atonement by dying on the cross. The OT sacrifices were imperfect sacrifices. They only atoned for one deed or one sin. Jesus Lived a perfect life which made him a perfect sacrifice. All our sins taken care of by him on that day.
So Gods standard is perfection, but by nature and design we are all imperfect (sinners). Seems asinine to me.

I also take issue with the idea or suggestion that one must accept Jesus in order to be considered living a moral life. I am able to devote my time, efforts and resources to the betterment of my community just like someone that worships. But I am less of a person in Gods eyes because I refuse to accept and act on the idea that if not for Him, I would not be able to lead a good and moral life??

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God's done 11 of the 12 steps. Accepting Christs sacrifice and not living open in defiance of God allows us to be with God both here and for eternity.
There is no disputing, IMO, that the basis and foundation of our society is firmly rooted in religious ideology, the "Golden Rule" if you will. Where I split from that thinking is I can practice the Golden Rule without the need to live my life in fear that if I do not present myself to Christ, Im going to hell. Hell is not a deterrent to me not leading a good and moral life, basic human decency is.

I firmly reject the notion that I can stand side by side with my Christian (or any denomination) neighbor at the soup kitchen, disaster relief, community support functions and at the end, Im going to hell because I choose not to pray to a God. I have accepted it, but I reject it just the same.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #30
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I choose to believe differently. If you think that Jesus was part of that entity then does that mean you don't have beef with people that follow his teachings? Not the Religion though.



Could be, but what does that mean if we are one of the most important parts of his plan?
I have no beef with any faith as long as they are peaceful. I also respect how other choose to believe. Even though I believe in God a certain way, I understand and support those who believe different than me, as long as they are not teiling me how I should practicing my/a faith.

My beliefs are just that, mine. Down deep, I think we are all worshipping the same supream being and there are so many different religions because they didn't have the internet or phones so everybody could keep their facts straight when the different religions were writing their books of sacred law.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 09:56 PM   #31
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I like the way you think.

Most of the time.

Christmas is coming up, so yeah. cadycane
Nothing wrong with Christmas. Christians may be right and I may be wrong.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 10:23 PM   #32
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Wars have been and are currently being waged over this... I do believe it is an issue that must be defined and clarified. In order for someone such as myself that neither believes or disbelieves the existence of any Deity, if you want me to actually believe he is so, then show me how accepting him will lead me to live a better life.
I really can't. That's not the reason we're supposed to accept him. It doesn't really have anything to do with making our lives (here on earth) better. In alot of cases it's the complete opposite. Thousands of people have died because of thier faith in God. Not even talking about People that died in wars.

Anywho, like I said before, God doesn't want you to accept him because it'll make your life better. He wants you to accept him because that's the only way you can be with him.


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So Gods standard is perfection, but by nature and design we are all imperfect (sinners). Seems asinine to me.
God's standard is perfection. He created us in his likeness. So we were, and can be, perfect. The problem lies in our current condition. We have sin in our lives and that is what keeps us from being perfect. Sin, by theological definition, is an absence of God. So if God is perfect then sin is imperfection. Our ancestors chose to sin and from then on our predisposition is to be sinful.

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I also take issue with the idea or suggestion that one must accept Jesus in order to be considered living a moral life. I am able to devote my time, efforts and resources to the betterment of my community just like someone that worships. But I am less of a person in Gods eyes because I refuse to accept and act on the idea that if not for Him, I would not be able to lead a good and moral life??
I never said you couldn't live a moral life with out Jesus. Never, not once. I can't say the same for my brothers or sisters though. Also, You're not looked at as less in God's eyes. We're all his children and he loves us all.

It's like when a kindergartner brings you a drawing they colored. It's their best, but it's not something that would go in a fine art exhibit. Our deeds, no matter how great or how small, are that colored picture. They don't meet the standards of God. He doesn't think any less of us, he just wants us to learn how to color in side the lines.

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There is no disputing, IMO, that the basis and foundation of our society is firmly rooted in religious ideology, the "Golden Rule" if you will. Where I split from that thinking is I can practice the Golden Rule without the need to live my life in fear that if I do not present myself to Christ, Im going to hell. Hell is not a deterrent to me not leading a good and moral life, basic human decency is.
My faith is not about getting out of hell. That's an effect of a very divisive movement in the Christian church to scare people into faith. It drives me crazy.

I believe what I believe because I recognize that I was a sinner whose standards weren't good enough for God. But while I was in that state God showed his mercy to me. It has nothing, for the most part, to do with my moral life or my actions. I have a huge debt paid for me and I didn't deserve it.

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I firmly reject the notion that I can stand side by side with my Christian (or any denomination) neighbor at the soup kitchen, disaster relief, community support functions and at the end, Im going to hell because I choose not to pray to a God. I have accepted it, but I reject it just the same.
The reason people are not going to get into heaven is because they have sin in their lives. Remember, Sin is an absence of God. If Heaven is the place where God lives, you can't be there with sin. God knows this so that's why he sent his son to die on the cross. That allows us to be with God now and in heaven.

The Number one misconceived thing about my faith is that God rejects us. The truth is that it's completely backwards. He's waiting for us to come to him. WE'RE REJECTING HIM. That's what Adam and eve did, and that's what we (Christians Included) continue to do. He's waiting with his arms wide open and we're just pushing him back. But at the same time think that he's pushing us back.

Hope that helps.....Sorry bout the boook.

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Old November 21st, 2011, 07:23 AM   #33
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Old November 21st, 2011, 07:36 AM   #34
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I believe that God and Jesus are the same entity. To me, God is a life force in the Universe that we really don't understand. I feel the Bible is not a historical record but in fact the result of numerous interpretations and idealisms from those before us who were struggling with the concept of God. I feel that all religions are right in some ways and all religions are wrong in some ways.

Could it be possible, considering the size of the Universe, that we are mearly a small part of the total picture of what God does?
That's pretty much how I feel about it as well.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 08:49 AM   #35
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Nope. Not at all.

God isn't pissed at us. He's sad. Not to many pissed people give up thier son on a cross to get the people they are pissed at back with them.

This is where people get confused. They think God left us. Not true, We left God. When Eve AND ADAM ate the fruit they made the choice to walk away from God; To disobey him and follow what they thought was right.

The other misconception is that God is holding a grudge against us. Also, not true. Once again, God is waiting, arms open, for us to come back to him. He even sent his son to give us a way back to him.

God is not a Guy up in the sky smashing us down with his fingers, nor is he mad at us. He loves us and is waiting for US to come back to him.

Also, he did come back to prepare the way to make thigns perfect. That's what Jesus did, and will do.


Very well stated
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Old November 21st, 2011, 10:12 AM   #36
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Nope. Not at all.

God isn't pissed at us. He's sad. Not to many pissed people give up thier son on a cross to get the people they are pissed at back with them.

This is where people get confused. They think God left us. Not true, We left God. When Eve AND ADAM ate the fruit they made the choice to walk away from God; To disobey him and follow what they thought was right.

The other misconception is that God is holding a grudge against us. Also, not true. Once again, God is waiting, arms open, for us to come back to him. He even sent his son to give us a way back to him.

God is not a Guy up in the sky smashing us down with his fingers, nor is he mad at us. He loves us and is waiting for US to come back to him.

Also, he did come back to prepare the way to make thigns perfect. That's what Jesus did, and will do.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 10:42 AM   #37
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I really can't. That's not the reason we're supposed to accept him. It doesn't really have anything to do with making our lives (here on earth) better. In alot of cases it's the complete opposite. Thousands of people have died because of thier faith in God. Not even talking about People that died in wars.

Anywho, like I said before, God doesn't want you to accept him because it'll make your life better. He wants you to accept him because that's the only way you can be with him.




God's standard is perfection. He created us in his likeness. So we were, and can be, perfect. The problem lies in our current condition. We have sin in our lives and that is what keeps us from being perfect. Sin, by theological definition, is an absence of God. So if God is perfect then sin is imperfection. Our ancestors chose to sin and from then on our predisposition is to be sinful.



I never said you couldn't live a moral life with out Jesus. Never, not once. I can't say the same for my brothers or sisters though. Also, You're not looked at as less in God's eyes. We're all his children and he loves us all.

It's like when a kindergartner brings you a drawing they colored. It's their best, but it's not something that would go in a fine art exhibit. Our deeds, no matter how great or how small, are that colored picture. They don't meet the standards of God. He doesn't think any less of us, he just wants us to learn how to color in side the lines.


My faith is not about getting out of hell. That's an effect of a very divisive movement in the Christian church to scare people into faith. It drives me crazy.

I believe what I believe because I recognize that I was a sinner whose standards weren't good enough for God. But while I was in that state God showed his mercy to me. It has nothing, for the most part, to do with my moral life or my actions. I have a huge debt paid for me and I didn't deserve it.



The reason people are not going to get into heaven is because they have sin in their lives. Remember, Sin is an absence of God. If Heaven is the place where God lives, you can't be there with sin. God knows this so that's why he sent his son to die on the cross. That allows us to be with God now and in heaven.

The Number one misconceived thing about my faith is that God rejects us. The truth is that it's completely backwards. He's waiting for us to come to him. WE'RE REJECTING HIM. That's what Adam and eve did, and that's what we (Christians Included) continue to do. He's waiting with his arms wide open and we're just pushing him back. But at the same time think that he's pushing us back.

Hope that helps.....Sorry bout the boook.
Best description I have ever heard.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 11:56 AM   #38
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Best description I have ever heard.
Scott does have a way with words.
I see evangelism in your future
Only if his hair falls out and he gets a bad toupee.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 01:26 PM   #39
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Only if his hair falls out and he gets a bad toupee.
Would you then be ready to hear the truth?
Investigate for yourself what is being said about Christ being the Savior for all man kind.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 03:59 PM   #40
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I want to first preface by saying thank you for your thought out, honest replies. Clearly your faith actually means something to you and I respect that. I often generalize when talking about religion and lump everyone into the religious zealot category and I shouldn't.

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I really can't. That's not the reason we're supposed to accept him. It doesn't really have anything to do with making our lives (here on earth) better. In alot of cases it's the complete opposite. Thousands of people have died because of thier faith in God. Not even talking about People that died in wars.

Anywho, like I said before, God doesn't want you to accept him because it'll make your life better. He wants you to accept him because that's the only way you can be with him.
So what does being with him gain me over not being with him? I'm not talking about any mental state, I mean purely physical. The reason I keep referring back to being a good, moral person is because I am looking for tangible benefits of worshiping over not worshiping. I don't mean it in a materialistic sense..... Just something I can put a value on.... i.e. value to me.

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God's standard is perfection. He created us in his likeness. So we were, and can be, perfect. The problem lies in our current condition. We have sin in our lives and that is what keeps us from being perfect. Sin, by theological definition, is an absence of God. So if God is perfect then sin is imperfection. Our ancestors chose to sin and from then on our predisposition is to be sinful.
So its an all or none scenario? Folks that have accepted God can be perfect but the rest of us sinners are keeping them down? Clearly people that worship worship some type of God, so what is keeping them from being perfect?

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I never said you couldn't live a moral life with out Jesus. Never, not once. I can't say the same for my brothers or sisters though. Also, You're not looked at as less in God's eyes. We're all his children and he loves us all.
But he wont love me enough to save me unless I accept him into my life, correct?

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It's like when a kindergartner brings you a drawing they colored. It's their best, but it's not something that would go in a fine art exhibit. Our deeds, no matter how great or how small, are that colored picture. They don't meet the standards of God. He doesn't think any less of us, he just wants us to learn how to color in side the lines.
I believe this would lead to a state of monotony. Everyone being the same by living the life God has laid out, Gods plan I suppose.

The only thing keeping that child's picture out of a fine arts exhibit would be based on a judgement by another human being. I know what you are getting at, just poking at your analogy!!

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I believe what I believe because I recognize that I was a sinner whose standards weren't good enough for God. But while I was in that state God showed his mercy to me. It has nothing, for the most part, to do with my moral life or my actions. I have a huge debt paid for me and I didn't deserve it.
This kind of goes back to my earlier question... So your standards increased when you accepted God into your life. Why couldn't you have done that without accepting God? I'm not questioning your faith, but asking why your motivator was God and not the want to simply be a better person?

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The reason people are not going to get into heaven is because they have sin in their lives. Remember, Sin is an absence of God. If Heaven is the place where God lives, you can't be there with sin. God knows this so that's why he sent his son to die on the cross. That allows us to be with God now and in heaven.
There is alot going on here, but I simply want to touch one point.... this is all based on the assumption that there is an afterlife. That there is a heaven and hell.

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The Number one misconceived thing about my faith is that God rejects us. The truth is that it's completely backwards. He's waiting for us to come to him. WE'RE REJECTING HIM. That's what Adam and eve did, and that's what we (Christians Included) continue to do. He's waiting with his arms wide open and we're just pushing him back. But at the same time think that he's pushing us back.

Hope that helps.....Sorry bout the boook.
I personally am not rejecting Him. I just don't see how accepting him will lead me to be a better person. And after-all, isn't that what the idea is, to eliminate sin? Strive for perfection...
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

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