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Old September 27th, 2006, 07:09 PM   #41
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don't you guys know yet? Religion is just a set of moral codes set up to keep civilation...well...civil. They are all (Religions) basically interchangeable. It's good that you believe, if you all didn't believe, we'd probably have a much more chaotic world. Just don't go looking down on someone because they don't believe or try to explain to somebody why they don't believe. I honestly don't know what I believe, but I definitely don't look for my spirituality on 4x4 website.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 07:44 PM   #42
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That is assuming that there IS an afterlife and/or god

Which is also assuming that two opposing idelogies cannot both be true at the same time.

Which is also assuming that there are good/logical reasons to believe in a set of ideologies in the first place.
Correct. Since my faith without proof does not run deep, I try to look inward for strength instead of to God. The rules are basically the same, I just prefer to take responsibility for helping myself. :)

BTW, Dave, I LOVE YOU MAN! :)
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Old September 27th, 2006, 07:48 PM   #43
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Well according to thier beliefs it is true... they arent calling you an idiot or calling you weak for it. If you are not religous, then being damned to hell means nothing really so why take it as an insult?
Oh, I never take it as an insult; rather, I used the example of how some Christians can be very condescending in their views. I also know of many Christians who accept me for who I am. (Most of my immediate family)
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Old September 27th, 2006, 08:02 PM   #44
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I look at it this way... If there is an afterlife other than wormfood, great. If not, great. I plan to live me life to the fullest, doing what I can for family, friends, and those in need that I am somehow able to help. That is what the supposed Christian "God" asks of us to do. So, even though I don't believe in the religion, I still agree with the moral values for the most part.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 09:48 PM   #45
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Just don't go looking down on someone because they don't believe or try to explain to somebody why they don't believe.
I agree with you there Sova.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 11:23 AM   #46
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Dave, if you can't quote my exact words, then don't quote me at all. Nowhere did I ever refer to church goers as idiots. If you can't debate without changing other people's words to fit your defense, then you obiously have some flaws with your thinking somewhere. Just because I don't get all stiff over some make believe deity, I am less of a person in your eyes. That makes you no better than what you believe me to be. I just take religion at face value for what I believe, the same as you do. We just have vastly different interpretations of reality.
Dude, you're the one tearing down church goers. I'll be the first to tell you that we are not mindless fairly tale followers. And I misquoted you to razz you, you needed your big head deflated a bit. And if my debating methods are flawed, I will remind you that you never even addressed the thread topic, instead you went on an off topic rant.

I don't think Jesus wants you to get a chubby when you think about him either. GROSS!

BTW, I don't think I am better than you, just to clarify. And I just hope you don't mind conversing with a fary tale follower.

p.s. I love Scot Douglas
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Old September 28th, 2006, 11:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR
Correct. Since my faith without proof does not run deep, I try to look inward for strength instead of to God. The rules are basically the same, I just prefer to take responsibility for helping myself. :)

BTW, Dave, I LOVE YOU MAN! :)
Scot, I propose to you that the answer lies outside of yourself. I think its great to buck up and be strong, but only in the shadow of the almighty. But we both know that I am not the boss of you, and that I accept you and love you, as you do of me.

Aren't we past due for a tasty ??
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Old September 28th, 2006, 11:32 AM   #48
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So by having my own opionions and freely sharing them (even if they are somehow off-topic) I am big headed? I don't really follow your chain of logic Dave. Sorta like countering my allegation that your debating methods are flawed by pointing out that my post was OT. Now there's a high quality comeback. If you want to be known as a fairy tale follower, that's fine. I don't disrespect you for it. That is your choice to be able to follow your own beliefs. However, you obviously have no respect for those that don't believe as you do and do not respect my right to not follow the main stream and kneel down before something I don't believe exists. In the end we are all aiming for the same goal here on Earth; to live a good life, treat others with respect, and leave it a little better than when we got here. I just don't believe I have to do so to be rewarded by some big guy in the clouds. My reward is the task itself, not some promised perfect world after death. To me that just sounds like someones way of convincing and bribing people to do the right thing for the wrong reasons. I shouldn't need the promise of some perfect place in heaven in order for me to be benevolent and help others during my lifetime. The reward is the task itself.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 11:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
I look at it this way... If there is an afterlife other than wormfood, great. If not, great. I plan to live me life to the fullest, doing what I can for family, friends, and those in need that I am somehow able to help. That is what the supposed Christian "God" asks of us to do. So, even though I don't believe in the religion, I still agree with the moral values for the most part.
Bro, IF there is an afterlife, then your decision WHILE you are alive is the swinging factor. You can't make important decisions like that after you die, you will be dead! Your decision now is what counts.

Your view of heavenly requirements is a common misconception. Good deeds never got anyone in heaven. It is by faith, not by works. That is why I said that your decision now is what counts, because it is a decision to believe, or not to believe. Surely faith without works is dead, but the faith is the crucial factor.

I know you are likely a good guy, moral guy, etc, most rules/commandments of the Christian faith are wise instruction. But the goal is to move beyond deeds, adn into faith. (to have both, well, according to the bible)
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Old September 28th, 2006, 11:56 AM   #50
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Here's a question for you Dave... What happens to the faithful Buddhists and say...Hinduists who have faith, but not in your god? Are they screwed? They were good people all their life and believed something else because they were raised that way. Say you were born in India instead of Michigan, you would be preaching the greatness of Hinduism...so how does that all work?
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:08 PM   #51
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I just don't get the whole thing about the Bible being "the truth" so to speak. The Bible as I understand it was put together by the early leaders of the church from a vast collection of writings that were available at the time. They selected certain works that fit what they believed to be the true word of God. Other works were thrown out and considered to be false writings prepared by "the Devil". This just reeks of manipulation by church leaders (who also basically ran the governments of the time) to influence the less educated citizens to become more civilized and follow the church's moral doctrines. At that time the only people who were somewhat educated in most areas of the world were the church leaders. So by selecting certain works of writing and bundling them into a single book, they could scare the peasants into believing just about anything they wanted and that this book was "the Word of God". I just don't buy it. Some drunk monk probably picked the wrong literary works. The real word of God could have actually said Eat, Drink, and be merry. But, that was in one of the books that never made it past the selection committee.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by mikesova
Here's a question for you Dave... What happens to the faithful Buddhists and say...Hinduists who have faith, but not in your god? Are they screwed? They were good people all their life and believed something else because they were raised that way. Say you were born in India instead of Michigan, you would be preaching the greatness of Hinduism...so how does that all work?

Actually there are 3 major religions in India, Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity. So he could in essence be a Christian in India.

Learned this with one of my many conversations with co-workers.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:09 PM   #53
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Here's a question for you Dave... What happens to the faithful Buddhists and say...Hinduists who have faith, but not in your god? Are they screwed? They were good people all their life and believed something else because they were raised that way. Say you were born in India instead of Michigan, you would be preaching the greatness of Hinduism...so how does that all work?
That is the reason there are Missionaries. We believe that God is the only God and in the end if you don't believe in them then you are bound to Hell. Great works will be performed close to the end of time in hopes to open the eyes of all to the one true GOD.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:21 PM   #54
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1. I think all religions are bullshit.

2. To me church is a great social outlet that tries to impose moral values on those that can't adopt them themselves.

3. So called Christianity is nothing more than a system of "morals" designed and perpetrated by governments over the centuries as a way to influence citizens to act in certain manners.

4. And Christianity doesn't preach violence?
1. IThats understandable, no hate from me!

2. So by me going to church, I am having morals imposed on me, and I go because I am unable to adpot morals on my own. Got it.

3. "So called" meaning its fake? Ok. So me going to church is me being controlled by the govenrment. Got it.

4. So based on your extensive biblical knowledge, you conclude that christianity preaches violence... riiiiight. I will be the first to admit that stupid stuff has been done inthe name of Jesus, and that christians are messed up at times, but you got this violence thing backwards dude. If you were on top of your game, you would have quoted some questionable O.T. verses. Good try. You might as well have claimed that the westboro church people who have the "God hates fags" signs are actual representatives of the christian faith. That would have been equally laughable.


So you drop a blanket statement saying that I am a person who is controlled by the government, who can't creat morals on my own, and lets church groups impose morals on me. I sound like an idiot who uses my faith as a crutch because i am weak, blah blah blah. Am I making bad conclusions after properly quoting you?
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:31 PM   #55
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I don't think the government is doing this in the present day. However, it was done centuries ago when the church basically was the government. Now government just screws everyone out in the open.

Here. How about this one. I believe that the majority of people that attend church and call themselves Christian really don't believe in God any more than I do. But, they are scared of admitting that they don't believe in God for fear of alienation. In a small town, as a business owner, you wouldn't dare say something like that you don't believe in God. Why? Because nobody would frequent your business for fear of being associated with the "heathen", even though most secretly agree with the business owner. It's called peer pressure. I don't want anyone to think less of me because I think differently, so therefore I will just go with the flow and say what people want to hear so that they will accept me. Everyone wants to belong to the group, even if the majority of the participants don't agree with why the group exists. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesova
Here's a question for you Dave... What happens to the faithful Buddhists and say...Hinduists who have faith, but not in your god? Are they screwed? They were good people all their life and believed something else because they were raised that way. Say you were born in India instead of Michigan, you would be preaching the greatness of Hinduism...so how does that all work?
Mike, I believe that God holds everyone accountable to the knowledge they have had. I believe that God makes himself known for who he is, and gives folks opportunity to believe. If someone was not in his radar for some reason, I would imagine that God would treat them in a manor consistant with his nature which is expressed in the Bible. So to answer your qeustion directly, I am not sure. But I do know that Jesus said he is the only way to heaven. What happens outside of that is between that person and God.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:33 PM   #57
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Everyone wants to belong to the group, even if the majority of the participants don't agree with why the group exists.
Kinda like www.greatlakes4x4.com

buahahahaha

2200+ members, and only a handful actually wheel lol
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:38 PM   #58
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Kinda like www.greatlakes4x4.com

buahahahaha

2200+ members, and only a handful actually wheel lol

:tonka: Jeep? What the hell is a Jeep? I thought this was the NAMBLA homepage.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:44 PM   #59
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Kinda like www.greatlakes4x4.com

buahahahaha

2200+ members, and only a handful actually wheel lol
CC is our God. He doesn't care if we wheel. As long as we tithe, we're good with "God".

< See that tire tread under my avatar? I give, therefore I belong...just like religion.
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Old September 28th, 2006, 12:46 PM   #60
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:tonka: Jeep? What the hell is a Jeep? I thought this was the NAMBLA homepage.
I had to look that up as I thought it was a car association... lol... gross lol
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