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Old September 27th, 2006, 01:11 PM   #21
Chiefwoohaw
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Originally Posted by Haggar
Pretty much no major real religion preaches hate. However, there are hate groups that perpetrate crimes in the name of religion, all religions. The afforementioned Ku Klux Klan is one of them. Radical islamic groups, the religious conflicts in Ireland, Bosnia, WWII, the Americas during colonialism.

And children really don't have a choice, not at that age. 10 year old kids developing a stance on abortion is a good example. There are major major major factors in that discussion that are far beyond a kid to understand the complexity of that situation.
Actually a 10 year old can understand the simple truths of the 10 commandments. There is a commandment that states "thou Shalt not kill" which is a pretty good reason to go against abortion. When your beliefs are pure as those of a 10 year old things are very black and white.

As they grow older their views will change because people will tell them that circumstances changes the reasons for an abortion or any killing. Even though you might think abortion is acceptable in some forms and that they can't possible understand the complexity of that situation which leads to them to forget that it is still killing and at that point they make a judgment call.

From the foundation your bliefs rest upon is how you decided what is right or wrong. I believe that the bible is the absolute truth that I learned from around the age of 10 or so and from what I believe from those teachings and actually reading the bible is that killing is wrong in all circumstances that are not in the realm of self defense or protection of what you believe in.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 01:24 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cmujeeper
Actually a 10 year old can understand the simple truths of the 10 commandments. There is a commandment that states "thou Shalt not kill" which is a pretty good reason to go against abortion. When your beliefs are pure as those of a 10 year old things are very black and white.

As they grow older their views will change because people will tell them that circumstances changes the reasons for an abortion or any killing. Even though you might think abortion is acceptable in some forms and that they can't possible understand the complexity of that situation which leads to them to forget that it is still killing and at that point they make a judgment call.

From the foundation your bliefs rest upon is how you decided what is right or wrong. I believe that the bible is the absolute truth that I learned from around the age of 10 or so and from what I believe from those teachings and actually reading the bible is that killing is wrong in all circumstances that are not in the realm of self defense or protection of what you believe in.

Okay,.........is anybody else really confused now about CMU?
I don't understand anymore......................Well I guess I never did.

By the way, Liberalism and Socialism are considered a religion as well, which a few members practice on here daily.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 02:26 PM   #23
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A little off topic

I'm confused, I understand that their is a commandment that states "thou shalt not kill" but what about the thousands that god killed, demanded be killed, and were killed in his name all throughout the bible. It sounds contradictory to me but I still haven't finished reading the bible maybe I should start over. Note: I'm not being cynical in that last line however you may read it I am serious.

Another question I have is are the different versions of the bible really that different? I am currently working my way through the king james version but there is the new american standard and I can't think off the top of my head of the other versions. But are they really that different.

Sorry to get off the point I am just curious as a layman in the truest sense of the word (I think)

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Old September 27th, 2006, 02:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Haggar
:dunie: Sounds like fun..

POSTED: 9:08 am EDT September 26, 2006


LOS ANGELES -- The new documentary "Jesus Camp" is shocking Christians and non-Christians alike with its scenes of children sobbing and crying out to God at a Pentecostal summer camp in North Dakota.

The film follows Midwestern children Rachael, now 10, Levi, now 13, and Tory, now 11, who attended Fischer's Bible camp in Devils Lake, N.D., in 2005, according to the Los Angeles Times.


Filmmaker Heidi Ewing said she was raised Catholic and her co-director, Rachel Grady, is Jewish, enabling them to present what they hope is a neutral view of Pastor Becky Fischer's "Kids on Fire" program.

Grady said Fischer let them make the documentary in hopes of reaching unsaved people.

In the film, the children cheered when asked if they'd be willing to give up their lives for Jesus, prayed over a cardboard cutout of President George W. Bush and cried as they pleaded for an end to abortion, the Los Angeles Times reported. The paper said that one of the children is home-schooled by a mother who teaches that "science doesn't prove anything."

Ewing said the children explained that they wept because God's heart is broken over a lost and sinful world. But she added that the children didn't seem unhappy -- just more intense than the average American child. Grady said all of the kids plan to become missionaries.

Some critics have labeled the camp a frightening example of brainwashing and child abuse.

"This is war! Are you part of it or not?," Fischer shouted at the children during the film.

Fischer proudly compared her Bible camp to indoctrination of young boys by extremist Muslims.

"If you look at the world's population, one third of that 6.7 billion people are children under the age of 15," Fischer said. "Where should we be putting our efforts? Where should we be putting our focus? I'll tell you where our enemies are putting it. They're putting it on the kids. They're going into the schools."

Fischer went on to say that Muslims in other countries are taking their kids to camps like "we take our kids" to bible camps. She said Muslims are teaching their kids to use rifles, how to put on bomb belts and to use machine guns.

"It's no wonder with that kind of intense training in discipling (sic) that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam," Fischer said. "I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan and in Israel and Palestine and all those different places. Because we have, excuse me, but we have the truth."

The filmmakers told the Times that they want the film to "make a broad statement about how politics and faith have become inexorably intertwined in America."

Fischer said that she plans to help promote the movie and that she is grateful for the national attention she's gotten from the movie and its controversy.

"I couldn't have paid for this kind of advertising," she said.

In the About Film section of the movie's Web site, it describes the movie as follows:

A growing number of Evangelical Christians believe there is a revival underway in America that requires Christian youth to assume leadership roles in advocating the causes of their religious movement. Jesus Camp follows a group of young children to Pastor Becky Fischer's "Kids on Fire Summer Camp", where kids are taught to become dedicated Christian soldiers in God's army and are schooled in how to take back America for Christ. The film is a first-ever look into an intense training ground that recruits born-again Christian children to become an active part of America's political future.



"Jesus Camp" is already open in New York and will open in 20 more cities across the United States Oct. 6.
To many words,I need pictures!!
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Old September 27th, 2006, 02:49 PM   #25
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So called Christianity is nothing more than a system of "morals" designed and perpetrated by governments over the centuries as a way to influence citizens to act in certain manners.

And Christianity doesn't preach violence? Ask the thousands that were killed in the Crusades in the name of Christ for starters...
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Old September 27th, 2006, 03:06 PM   #26
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What were the Christian crusades?

What were the Christian crusades?




Question: "What were the Christian crusades?"



Answer: The crusades are among the most frequent objections to the Christian faith. Some Islamic terrorists even claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. So, what were the crusades and why are they viewed as such a big problem for the Christian faith?



First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the "Christian crusades." Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians...even though they claimed to be. The Name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Secondly, the crusades took place from approximately 1095 to 1230 A.D. That was between 775 and 910 years ago. Should the unbiblical and un-Christ-like actions of supposed Christians 1000 years ago still be held against Christians today?



Third, not that this is an adequate excuse, but Christianity is not the only religion with a violent past. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately 200 A.D. to approximately 900 A.D. the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc. was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam began to spread and become powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and "Christian" kings / emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no Biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the Name of Jesus Christ. At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.



For a good, historical, and balanced summary of the various crusades, please read the following article - http://www.theopedia.com/Crusades.



To summarize briefly, the crusades were attempts by "Christians" in the 10th through 12th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims / Arabs. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to "convert" to Christianity. If they refused, they were put to death. This is blatantly unbiblical...and perhaps that is the best summary of the issue. The idea of conquering a land through war and violence in the Name of Christ is completely unbiblical. The crusades may have been done by so-called Christians...but many of the actions that took place in the crusades were completely antithetical to everything the Christian faith should stand for.



How can we respond when, as a result of the crusades, the Christian faith is attacked by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and those of other religions? We can respond in the following ways: (1) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of people who lived 900+ years ago? (2) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of everyone who claims to represent your faith? Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 03:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by biohazardbill
Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
Or all white people for slavery.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 03:51 PM   #28
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I don't just pick on Christianity, I think all religions are bullshit... I had to agree with the wrestler turned governor about the whole weak minded thing. To me church is a great social outlet that tries to impose moral values on those that can't adopt them themselves. I don't deny the social value churches provide, but the whole religion thing just makes me laugh hysterically.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 03:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
I don't just pick on Christianity, I think all religions are bullshit... I had to agree with the wrestler turned governor about the whole weak minded thing. To me church is a great social outlet that tries to impose moral values on those that can't adopt them themselves. I don't deny the social value churches provide, but the whole religion thing just makes me laugh hysterically.

shhh...don't say that stuff...now FORD FLARESIDE is gonna try to convert you...just say you love Jesus...it's a lot easier that way.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:02 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mikesova
shhh...don't say that stuff...now FORD FLARESIDE is gonna try to convert you...just say you love Jesus...it's a lot easier that way.

If 84Scrambler wanted to talk to me about Jesus, I would have no problem talking with him over a beer. In fact I think I have his brand in the fridge right now. Oh and thanks for the compliment.

(sorry had a typeo, didn't want Sova getting on my case so I had to edit)

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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
Church goers are idiots, crutch for the weak, blah blah blah

You are so far advanced as a human, I am just blown away. How did you become so self actualized and advanced? It's almost as if you are... excuse the pun... god like!

Way to be better than everyone
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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:31 PM   #32
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I love jesus, and I love to camp

I should probably go.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:38 PM   #33
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I find it amusing that you think believing in something is weak, it takes a strong will to believe in something, especially something driven by faith alone with no substancial scientific proof it exists.

To say this could be same as saying love, or fear, or any of a number of things do not exist. Just because you may not be scared of heights, does not mean someone else isn't, and the fear exists.

Just because people choose to believe in a religion, does not make them weak or an idiot... they just choose to believe in something you do not.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by biohazardbill
I find it amusing that you think believing in something is weak, it takes a strong will to believe in something, especially something driven by faith alone with no substancial scientific proof it exists.

To say this could be same as saying love, or fear, or any of a number of things do not exist. Just because you may not be scared of heights, does not mean someone else isn't, and the fear exists.

Just because people choose to believe in a religion, does not make them weak or an idiot... they just choose to believe in something you do not.

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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:56 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by biohazardbill
Just because people choose to believe in a religion, does not make them weak or an idiot... they just choose to believe in something you do not.
Not to point any fingers, but the same people you mention are more than happy to tell me I am condemned to Hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour. I choose to belive in something Christians do not and that makes me Damned. Period.

:shrug:
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Old September 27th, 2006, 04:58 PM   #36
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Well according to thier beliefs it is true... they arent calling you an idiot or calling you weak for it. If you are not religous, then being damned to hell means nothing really so why take it as an insult?
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Old September 27th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR
Not to point any fingers, but the same people you mention are more than happy to tell me I am condemned to Hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour. I choose to belive in something Christians do not and that makes me Damned. Period.

:shrug:

Even the Jews are supposed to eventually accept Jesus as their saviour. There is hope for you child...


In all actuality.. everyone has a right to believe whatever they want when it comes to religion. It's just that lately people seem to be forgetting that it isn't up to them to make judgement.

I am a Christian because I admire the teachings and value them because they really do help you to improve your life for the better. There's a lot more to it but no one has to explain their reasons as to why they believe. I will always take things with a grain of salt for one simple fact that no one can deny.... there is a lot more to this world than we can see or even imagine and if you look at the huge picture of things... all we do now seems rather pointless. Instead of uniting and doing all we can to better ourselves as a species we insist on spending our lives working for that next promotion so we can buy a new boat.

I could type up a book on here about the way I view the world but there's no real point to it seeing that my views are ever evolving as I experience more and more on this wild road we call life.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 05:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by biohazardbill
Well according to thier beliefs it is true... they arent calling you an idiot or calling you weak for it. If you are not religous, then being damned to hell means nothing really so why take it as an insult?

It's meant as an insult. Or at least the phrase is typically delivered in an insulting tone and people tend to listen more to how something is said and not the actual statement being delivered.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 05:48 PM   #39
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the same people you mention are more than happy to tell me I am condemned to Hell for not accepting Jesus as my saviour. I choose to belive in something Christians do not and that makes me Damned. Period.
That is assuming that there IS an afterlife and/or god

Which is also assuming that two opposing idelogies cannot both be true at the same time.

Which is also assuming that there are good/logical reasons to believe in a set of ideologies in the first place.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin
You are so far advanced as a human, I am just blown away. How did you become so self actualized and advanced? It's almost as if you are... excuse the pun... god like!

Way to be better than everyone
Dave, if you can't quote my exact words, then don't quote me at all. Nowhere did I ever refer to church goers as idiots. If you can't debate without changing other people's words to fit your defense, then you obiously have some flaws with your thinking somewhere. Just because I don't get all stiff over some make believe deity, I am less of a person in your eyes. That makes you no better than what you believe me to be. I just take religion at face value for what I believe, the same as you do. We just have vastly different interpretations of reality.
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