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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:55 AM   #1
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Default d-18 transfer case/2 speed rear end

Has anyone ever used a Dana 18 to make a 2 speed rear end.

Basically you would flip it 90 degrees upright making the drive shaft's ends upright.

Then turn it 180 sideways making the input the new output going into the rear axle.

The rear end end of the drive shaft would come up to the rear drive shaft output of the rear transfer case.


Your running the transfer case backwards.


This would not only allow you to move the drive shaft up. But would give you a 1/1 and 1/2.5(.4/1) gear ratio.

You might even get a axle mounted pto out of it depending on the diff.

This would provide better highway speeds and lower gearing then many housings can provide(except rocks). Oiling would be a issue but sure it is something that can be handled somehow.

Would it work or am I just overlooking the obvious again?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 08:33 AM   #2
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Unless you did both front and rear axles this would probably be a nightmare..

you'd gain more with a doubler or low range transfer case kit- then both axles would get it (reduced gearing) at the same time

Not to mention the packaging, shifting, and oiling
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Old July 4th, 2011, 08:52 AM   #3
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just when i thoght i knew what you were talking about you go and do this!
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tube bending and gear installs pm me for info! gears installed for $150 and up per axle.
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Old July 4th, 2011, 10:15 AM   #4
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buy an atlas 4 speed, mate it to a early gm NV4500, and be done with it. you can achieve ridiculously low gearing with that combo. 6.34:1 1st x 10.34:1 low range x say 4.10:1 in the axles and you have a crawl ratio of 268:1. if you run 38's we'll say you can run the highway at 2300 in 4th gear or 1700 in 5th. IMO much easier, and effective.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #5
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You would still have 2 speeds. the 1/1 and the 2.5 or whatever to 1.

By flipping it around you would have a .4/1 and a 1/1. So you would only need to put it in the rear axle(there is not enough clearance to run a reducer up front). This would make the rear drive shaft fairly level.


A rear end gearing would be 1.64 to 1 so gearing that low is not possible.
4.11x.4=1.64

Using the low ratio t-18
6.32,3.09,1.69,1.00 with the 2 speed rear end(rear transfer case) you get a ratio of 2.52, 1.23, 0.67, 0.40 multiplied by the 4.11 gearing



At the rear wheels(with the t-18 and the 2 speed rear) you would have 10.36, 5.06, 2.77, 1.64

A stock 69 with a t-14 is 3.34, 1.85, 1.00 with the 2.73 rear end is 9.11, 5.05, 2.73.

So it would accelerate like a stock 69 cj-5.

The benefit would be that you would be able to run down the highway keeping in the torque range. Then pull off and hit the trail with the 1/1 ratio and keep the craw.

---------------------------------------------------

This is how I planned on running 9.34 rocks down the highway in project Goliath. Using a 1.96(205) ratio flipped around(.51/1) 4.76 gears. That in combination with a t-18 and a (.75)overdrive would let me drive at highway speeds.

--------------------------------------------------

I could actually run a divorced 205 for better gearing 0.51/1 as opposed to dana 18's .4/1.
I am not sure how much taller a 205 is but it would give the same pto option as the dana 18.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:20 PM   #6
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I think I may have a issue with the rotation of the shafts though.

Basically I am running the rear of the drive shaft to the front of the transfer case output that would go to the front axle normally.

I think they all rotate the same direction as the motor. That's the only way this will work.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak450r View Post
buy an atlas 4 speed, mate it to a early gm NV4500, and be done with it. you can achieve ridiculously low gearing with that combo. 6.34:1 1st x 10.34:1 low range x say 4.10:1 in the axles and you have a crawl ratio of 268:1. if you run 38's we'll say you can run the highway at 2300 in 4th gear or 1700 in 5th. IMO much easier, and effective.
I wish I could run a 4500 but it leaves me with like a 10" rear drive shaft.

Even if I move the motor up the rear axle back (and front forward) I will still have drive shaft vibrations like nuts.

The point of doing the 2 speed rear is that the rear drive shaft would sit mainly level.

Lending me no chance of vibrations.

As far as the lower gearing goes I could install overdrive in the dana 18 to give me a .75/1 high ratio. This is plan B if I can not find a way to make a 2 speed rear work.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 05:55 PM   #8
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I don't want to extend the axles. I wanted a small Jeep I could park anywhere which is why I dropped the wrangler frame for a cj-5 frame. I have actually done a lot of planning on fitting a 35" tire inside the jeep to further reduce the overall length.

I have retractable fender flares to reduce the width and I will be running a adjustable suspension that will let me drop the suspension to reduce the height.

At roughly 11'Lx6'Wx6'H I will be able to fit into any garage without issue and I want to keep it that way.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 07:43 AM   #9
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I keep looking at this I need to use a Dana 18 because it moves the drives haft up. Using a 205 would simply allow me to have a 2 speed rear end. This was not a issue with the rocks on "Goliath" but will only shorten the drive shaft length on Project pj and cause clearance issues.

It seems all I would need to do Is adapt some kind of sleeve so the intermediate shaft would mate to the pinion on the axle. I think I could modify the yoke and make it work.

This would retain the original 3rd member seal and have a plate that would be welded to the (previous trans input) transfer case and then bolted to the rear axle.

I am almost completely positive the (previous front drive shaft output) rear facing PTO would clear the fj62 housing having only 2 inches of clearance. The pto is a cool bonus here that I would like th have for the heck of it. I wont know until I actually put the two together and see about clearances.

I could see it becoming a issue with how I link up the suspension arms though.

This would work better with a center located diff but I did not go that route so I will work with the fj62 ps diff.


The fill hole is located on what would be the top of the 2 speed(transfer case). I could fill it with fluid up to the output shaft roughly 2 inches from the top this would be enough to lubricate the seals(i think).

This pretty much has the entire transfer case filled I could make the fill into a vent/fill(will do that anyway to avoid contamination). That would allow for some pressure fluctuation.

Still the idea of blowing out that lower seal is a concern. I would retain the axle pinion seal so there would not be any fluid entering the housing issue there. But i would use a second axle housing seal to seal the output of the lower(what would normally go to the trans). this would leave a very small area of less then a 1/8th where the output shaft going to the 3rd member would be exposed.

Or I could use just the 3rd member seal and mate the 2 speed transfer case onto that. This would eliminate any need for a double seal. And the axle seal would have no way to "blow out" due to its shape. But if the axle seal ripped it would send all the transfer case fluid into the axle. That could there by blow the outer axle seals. I am sure I would hear the sudden loud wine of the 2 speed rear (transfer case) chewing itself apart and stop before the axle seals blew but who knows the axle suddenly being filled with fluid may cause a instant blowout of the outer seals.

I could see a 2 seal system working better for me.

The shifter arms would still be located on the side and I could use a aircraft cable(much like the setup to convert a vacuum operated yj 4wd engage to manual) to shift it and lock it in place.
2wd hi (all the way forward) would give a 1/1 ratio.
4wd hi (might take a bit of sliding from 2wd to neutral to find it) have a 1/1 ratio pto. It could also be driven like this if I wanted to run a pto driven trailer or something.
4wd low(all the way back) would giving me a .4/1 ratio.

I am open to oiling suggestions cause I don't know exactly if filling the Dana 18 up to roughly 2 inches from the top of the fill/ vent hole would allow enough lubrication. It should though I don't see why it would not.

Heck give me some feedback I would love to hear this wont work and here is why.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 09:03 AM   #10
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No I didn't read it all, just picked out a few thing to know about a Spicer or Dana 18;
  • A Spicer / Dana 18 T case is weak. I can scatter them 'at will' with a V6.
  • The overdrive units are even weaker than the T-case.
  • Other than O'Brians 4 Wheel West gears at around $2k, the aftermarket ratio gearsets tend to splay the case apart. This requires an inspection cover truss to 'try' to keep the case intact during hard use.
  • They leaked from every yoke, seal, rail, vent and speedo gear when they were new. You could roll that fucker in a vat of Permatex, use the best double lip seals made and gear oil will find it's way out.
  • Shitty helix angle on input gear. See comment #1
  • Factory gears are out of production. The replacement gears being sold by the 4x4 shops (all from Omix Ada) for them are made in India and suck ass in quality. Read; unbearable gear whine even with a 50/50 mix of Lucas hub oil.
My .02

If you 'need' a rear offset drop case with strength go with an Orion and (if needed) an adapter. I'd do a multi speed Atlas and a centered Hi-9 rear before I'd screw with making stuff out of weak, old, discontinued parts.

I don't know what wheel base length you're planning, but currently being @ 81" on 35's I can assure you that 60 MPH is plenty fast enough to be white knuckled the highway
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Old July 13th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
No I didn't read it all, just picked out a few thing to know about a Spicer or Dana 18;
  • A Spicer / Dana 18 T case is weak. I can scatter them 'at will' with a V6.
  • The overdrive units are even weaker than the T-case.
  • Other than O'Brians 4 Wheel West gears at around $2k, the aftermarket ratio gearsets tend to splay the case apart. This requires an inspection cover truss to 'try' to keep the case intact during hard use.
  • They leaked from every yoke, seal, rail, vent and speedo gear when they were new. You could roll that fucker in a vat of Permatex, use the best double lip seals made and gear oil will find it's way out.
  • Shitty helix angle on input gear. See comment #1
  • Factory gears are out of production. The replacement gears being sold by the 4x4 shops (all from Omix Ada) for them are made in India and suck ass in quality. Read; unbearable gear whine even with a 50/50 mix of Lucas hub oil.
My .02

If you 'need' a rear offset drop case with strength go with an Orion and (if needed) an adapter. I'd do a multi speed Atlas and a centered Hi-9 rear before I'd screw with making stuff out of weak, old, discontinued parts.

I don't know what wheel base length you're planning, but currently being @ 81" on 35's I can assure you that 60 MPH is plenty fast enough to be white knuckled the highway
Yea the strength is a issue. But it has to be a rear ps drop case to clear the housing.

What I am trying to do is move the drive shaft up and get a .4/1 or .5/1 ratio. That way I would not worry about drive shaft vibrations. Using this I could run some freakish gears in the 5 something range if i wanted to while maintaining highway driveability.

This moves the rear drive shaft up to avoid any vibrations so it will cruise at 75 without issue.

This is a cj5 btw.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 09:41 AM   #12
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Something like a 5.29/1 in the rear/front with the t-18's 6.88 low gear would produce a nice craw. I could mess around with a low ratio t case if need be But i would rather just leave the case stock for easy replacement.

Putting the 2 speed rear in high would turn that 5.29 into a 2.11(5.29x.4) dropping the rpm's down for cruising.

This is more about moving the drive shaft angle up then anything though. I may need to raise the ps of the floor up for clearance during flex.

I just want to know if it is dooable if not I can stop screwing around with the idea.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 10:31 AM   #13
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If you EVER plan on running a V8 or warmed over V6 and touching the gas pedal you will go through Spicer 18's no matter where you put it or what you use it for. If it HAS to be a PS drop go Orion, you'll already have toy axles and matching driveline yokes. Orions come in 3.0 & 4.0 ratios, you just need a donor case for some parts.

Are you running a Jeep T-18? If so sell it and use a Ford T-18 with a bored out GM bell housing/pilot bushing and a Novak T-case adapter. That will net you about half a foot more of rear driveshaft. My rear driveshaft is damn near a straight shot to the diff. Sounds like you're making this waaaaaay harder than it has to be. Ask anyone that's ridden with me, I have zero driveline vibe and pretty much fall within the parameters you are trying to reach. And I pull right into a regular size garage door without any problems.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #14
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I have a ford t-18 with a jeep input shaft. The main reason for going with the dana 18 was for the overdrive. I am dropping the 225 dauntless that was going to take the place of the 231 that it has now. I just don't want to screw around not being able to find parts later.

I am going with a 383 that will put out around 400 lb of tq. This is my first build and I'm open to advise on what to use. The Dana 18 transfer case was more because of the overdrive feature then anything. I WILL be using the fj62 axles with some longfields and a electric locker I don't see any issue running 35's. I don't know about upgrading the housings at this point it is becoming a bigger job then I thought. Maybe I will just plan to upgrade to the ruff stuff housings for ways down the road.

If there is another way to run a ps drop case with overdrive besides using a Dana 18 I'm open to it. I am not extending my wheel base though. I have heard about the dana 18 being tough or being a pos depending on the driver.

What I am trying to do is have a transfer case on the rear. A lower ratio around 2.0 to 1 would be perfect. If I had say a truck I could flip around a 205 to get a gear reducer for a .51/1 highway gearing and make it work. I just don't have the room to do that in a cj-5 so I thought I could put it on the rear axle. It does sem a bit far fetched. But would let me run dang near any ratio.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 11:45 PM   #15
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Just because I have a Rockwell rear axle, Unimog front axle, NV4500 trans, Autocar T-case and a Studebaker engine in my barn doesn't mean they should all go into my next project. You dig what I'm sayin?

This Jeep will go 60MPH just under 3k rpm and still crawls all kinds of obsticals at idle. 35's, 4:88's, 2.46 T-case & 6:32 1st gear. IMHO, Going much over 50-55MPH in a lifted, 81" wheelbase Jeep is not too bright an idea.

With the above info in mind, watch the video and tell me what more your "needs" in an early CJ are and I'll do my best to point you in a direction. I've been screwing with early CJ's for about 25 years.

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Old July 14th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #16
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Your right on the Dana 18 I know it is the weak link. I have played around with running Toyota, International, even Mercedes transfer cases. I have considered a atlas 2 a couple times now the cost is 2/3's of the transfer case that I was going to have built for "Goliath".

The thing that I want is a .5 to 1 ratio. Not only would it save the engine at higher rpm's but it would let me run that rear with virtually any gearing I want.

A costly option that I keep ignoring is a design that I was going to use in a hydraulic drive train for "Goliath".
It is loosely based off of the 5 ton 1 speed M818 transfer case that had a main spur gears that slid between back to engage the front drive shaft. I know Spur gears are weaker then others but in order for them to slide I need them to be spur.

This is how the case roughly works

A 2 inch shaft rotates 2 different size main gears that are 2 inches thick that are milled down into one unit. The front spur gear is a 12" 30 tooth gear at the with a 2.166 gear a inch behind it. That 2.166 gear has a carrier that holds another under it and there is another under that.
So there is a 12" gear and 3 2.166 gears mounted verticaly. This gear junction come to the same height on the bottom. This entire assembly is fixed.

Next to the 12" gear and the 2.166 assembly you have a 6" 15 tooth gear. This gear rides on a rotating shaft that has groves on the inside that alow the 6" gear to slide between the 12" gear and the 2.166 gear.

This allows for a .5/1 or 3/1 gear ratio change by pulling a fork forward or backward to move the gear ratio gear.

Riding on the same shaft with grove behind the first is another 6" 15 tooth gear. This gear is 3" long and used to engage the drive shaft block.

The drive shaft block contains 2 6" 15 tooth gears that are 2" long a inch apart. By sliding a secondary fork back you engage the rear shaft. By sliding the fork to the middle you engage both shafts. And by sliding the fork all the way forward you engage just the front drive shaft.

In the wide design the 3 gear sets set beside each other making the case roughly 28 inches wide. 22" from the center of the drive shaft.
This makes the wide case 14" tall, 28" wide and roughly 10" deep.
(keep reading)

The tall design moves the drive shaft block down under the 6" tall 3" long gear.

This yields a case that is 18" tall, 23" wide and 10" deep.

The Wide case is more reliable because it has equal pressure among all the front input and two drive shaft seals.

I may have described something wrong. But it will all perfectly mesh and is plenty heavy duty.

Of course this design is to big to fit in between the frame rails at 29.25". So I was planning on decreasing the over all size by half and using the wide design for a case that was

7" tall, 14" wide and 6" deep this is half the size of the orgional and should fit in the frame rails easily.


The reason I have tried to avoid this design is the sheer amount of CNC work that is involved. In order for the 12"/2.16 gear to be strong it has to be milled from a single block. This is the main shaft and will take all the torque of the motor/transmission gear reduction. The 2 other 2.166 gears ride on a C shaft and they have pressed in bearings. The case as a total of 3 inside bearings and 3 outside bearings that are next to the seals.

I was quoted between $2200 and $2800 to have the 1/2 size 7x14x6 wide design built. I was quoted $800 to have the 12/2.16 main shaft milled.

This would yield a .5/1 drive and 3/1 low transfer case. I could use the 6.32 1st to make up for the .5/1 giving a 3.16 1st,1.54 second, .084 third and 0.5 forth. This would let me run a high rear gear set in the rear for a low craw.

But the sheer cost with the uncertianty has me running from the case.
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Old July 14th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #17
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Your jeep craws and runs down the highway at 60 running roughly 3k.

What I am trying to do is decrease that 3k down to 1500.

That would be done by flipping a 205 transfer case around. Its dooable in a pickup using a divorced case.

I'm not building a huge spung over jeep. I like to stay low to the ground and have not needed sway bars in any off road vechial i own. I just respect that it is tippy and take corners slow.

This in not about speed I don't think I will take the jeep over 60 much. It is about engine and overall drive train wear. If I can cut down the rpm's that the engine and transmission turns I can save on the wear. Mind you the rear end would be moving faster but that is something I would need to keep in mind for long trips.

With a low powerband running at 1500 would allow me to still have a bit of grunt to get up and go.

With a torque rating at 400 lb the .5/1 ratio would have only 200 lb of tq. This would save on wear due to heavy foot and such. Off road in the 3/1 ratio I would be able to craw.

I am the type of person that likes to sit back and idle. I may burp the throttle to get over something but my ideal kind of rig is something I can just craw over stuff.

I'm not into rocks im more into logs as a obstical(im treading lightly it is on private land and it is left over from a logging crew on a small quad track that almost no one uses anymore).
I like woods weeling the best, rubbing trees and sliding down hills when you hit a patch of leaves. Thats why I am making this body out of removable plastic pannels so I dont need to spend most of my weekends in the garage fixing body damage.

Still I do like what I see in that video thats dang near exactly how I drive.

So back to the transfer case building my own just seems to complicated. While I would really want a .5/1 ratio if seems like it is something that is not going to happen.

So your sudgesting a toyota case. Im open to that but that is pushing $2000 by the time I get the case and tear out the guts and implant the new stuff.

This is a whatever it cost jeep I am open to using a atlas 2 if that would be better?

Tell me what is best and I will go with that.

The t-18 i have is complicated it is a rebuilt 13-01 jeep t case with ford internals and a stubby shaft. Thats what I was told anyway I wont know until I pull the cover off. I might just hand it to someone that really knows what there doing and say what can I do with this? Then just figuring it out by mesing up and learning.

I would Love if there was some kind of .5 to 1 case out there I just have not found any. I could run some kind of .5/1 box between the trnsmission and the transfer case but that adds lengh which is why i was considering just putting it on the rear axle.




I am coming back 8/1 to 8/6 to start masacuring the body, grind off the tabs, and fish plate the frame. I need to buy a pos truck to kick around in for the week in there somewhere and If I have any time left over maybe I will pick up the tube and bend some angles and get use to the tube bender.

I am fishplating/reinforcing the frame and building the cage. Between the reinforced frame. the tied in cage and the tied in "body(which is almost another cage)" the frame should be really stiff and straight. Once that is all straight and true I will move onto the powertrain.

I plan on keeping the jeep axles under it so I can move it around once I am ready I will weld up a tri link that has a shockwave airbag system. I am waiting to do the suspension last because I want to have a accurate idea about the weight not just a guess.
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Old July 15th, 2011, 10:54 PM   #18
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A Ford T18 has a 1-1/16" diameter, ten spline input shaft that has a stick-out length of 6-1/2" Used with a GM bell housing it provides the shortest HD setup you can fit in a CJ5. Notice you don't see the shafts or driveline hanging down below the springs in that vid? And neither shaft is custom high angle, just regular Spicer stuff from Joint, Clutch & Gear.

Maybe I'm too old school, and it's just my opinion, but early Jeeps of 81" WB era don't need exotic suspensions, drivelines or a V8 to trail ride about anywhere you'd point them. Flat head, 4 cyl, open diff 2A's were doing the Rubicon, Moab, Black Bear pass, etc... before most cars had coil springs. A stock to mild V6, good 4 speed and a medium duty T-case work just fine with an experienced driver. Although I would step up to Dana 44's, because 25, 27 & 30 Dana's break way to easy, even with low power. Add an overdrive and there's your trail ready highway cruiser.

99.999% of the stuff on our trail 5 can be had from the corner parts store or next day from 4WD Hardware. That's called a vacation saver vehicle. Break an exotic with one off parts and you load it back up on the trailer and go shopping for fudge & T-shirts for the rest of the week.

With some of the 300+ mile trips we've done in the 5 I'd liked to have tried an OD, but in the end it didn't seem to matter to the engine. Who knows, lugging an engine just 700 RPM over idle at highway speeds may be just as damaging. I did have a real nice Warn overdrive I got off of Pavement Pounder a while back, but had to sell it because of PTO / length / crossmember issues.

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Old August 24th, 2011, 10:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
A Ford T18 has a 1-1/16" diameter, ten spline input shaft that has a stick-out length of 6-1/2" Used with a GM bell housing it provides the shortest HD setup you can fit in a CJ5. Notice you don't see the shafts or driveline hanging down below the springs in that vid? And neither shaft is custom high angle, just regular Spicer stuff from Joint, Clutch & Gear.

Maybe I'm too old school, and it's just my opinion, but early Jeeps of 81" WB era don't need exotic suspensions, drivelines or a V8 to trail ride about anywhere you'd point them. Flat head, 4 cyl, open diff 2A's were doing the Rubicon, Moab, Black Bear pass, etc... before most cars had coil springs. A stock to mild V6, good 4 speed and a medium duty T-case work just fine with an experienced driver. Although I would step up to Dana 44's, because 25, 27 & 30 Dana's break way to easy, even with low power. Add an overdrive and there's your trail ready highway cruiser.

99.999% of the stuff on our trail 5 can be had from the corner parts store or next day from 4WD Hardware. That's called a vacation saver vehicle. Break an exotic with one off parts and you load it back up on the trailer and go shopping for fudge & T-shirts for the rest of the week.

With some of the 300+ mile trips we've done in the 5 I'd liked to have tried an OD, but in the end it didn't seem to matter to the engine. Who knows, lugging an engine just 700 RPM over idle at highway speeds may be just as damaging. I did have a real nice Warn overdrive I got off of Pavement Pounder a while back, but had to sell it because of PTO / length / crossmember issues.
I run about 2400-2500 RPM at 60 in the flatty with the V6, 3.73 gears and 34's. I would love more gear but I have not needed it yet. Driving 60 is scary enough in that sonofabitch with it locked in the rear. I am running the weak T86 trans, Spicer 18 t-case and 3.73 axle gears.

At Snowfari 3 years ago I wheeled with some of the 'big boys' in JK's with Hemi's and 40's. I somehow got placed toward the front of the pack. I took a strap just to pop me over the top of a hill twice in 2' deep snow, while all those bigger jeeps pulled cable. I wasn't even locked at the time.

I completely agree with Renegade II that you are WAY overthinking this to get 35's under a early CJ5. Your other thread led me to this one.

Once you run one down the highway at 60-65, you won't want to do it often. I know the ride itself isn't enjoyable, usually I get an oscillation up and down from the way they rolled the damn pavement. But the SWB tends to want to wander all over the road too. I love cruising backroads at 55-60, but I rarely hit the highway with it anymore.

As far as parts for a 225 V6... pretty much everything I have needed has been in stock at a parts store. Rebuild kits are more expensive then a Chebby 350 - but most are just because of the volume of people building 350's.

That 225 had enough torque that Pulling my M416 for a trail cleanup it was idling towing a loaded trailer at idle, with Jeepaholic and I walking along side the jeep chucking more stuff in the trailer. It would idle down to 250rpm at points crawling a small hill then pick back up to 300-500. The trail was worn in enough that the trail itself was 'guiding' the jeep. Adam and I still laugh about it, I never thought the little V6 would have done half as much as I have put it through.

It had the added bonus of keeping the jeep light. All this extra stuff you want to add (like the D18 attached to the axles) adds weight and complication. The more u-joints you have the more failure points you have as well. They are not real big on an early. Extra weight also adds wear and strain on the weaker parts. A D18 t-case usually needs rebuilt after 20-25k miles of use. It is the design, the vehicles back then were designed to be strong (for the HP and torque of the time), but they needed a HELL of a lot more routine maintenance. Something that most people have forgotten how to do.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 10:41 AM   #20
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Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Talk > General Tech
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