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Old March 28th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #41
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I will answer your question and then i am def. done. They did research the job. They knew the pay and the BENEFITS that came with it. Many do the job because they love to do it. The benefits help compensate for the lesser pay they receive compared to people who are equally educated in the private sector.
So they researched the job, knew the pay and benefits structure going in, but only have an issue with the pay and benefits structure after they take the job?

This will not garner sympathy from me.

And you keep saying lessor pay..... Even the MSM does stories about how equal just the pay is between public and private sector. If you add in the cost of benefits and what portion of those benefits are paid by the employee, the public workers come out on top. If you have some stats that refute this, I would love to see them.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #42
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So they researched the job, knew the pay and benefits structure going in, but only have an issue with the pay and benefits structure after they take the job?

This will not garner sympathy from me.

And you keep saying lessor pay..... Even the MSM does stories about how equal just the pay is between public and private sector. If you add in the cost of benefits and what portion of those benefits are paid by the employee, the public workers come out on top. If you have some stats that refute this, I would love to see them.
bullshit...you need to look at the level of education vs salary and you will see the public worker is FAR behind...the stats they love to show you on TV shows how public employees make more than the dipshit with the GED...not in the same class...nobody I know took thier job in the public secotr with the intentions of making it rich...everybody knew the pay sucked but did it anyway for the benifits
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Old March 28th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #43
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Outlaw all public sector unions.

I'm right, you're wrong, end of story.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #44
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Outlaw all public sector unions.

I'm right, you're wrong, end of story.
agreed..however police need to be moved towards a commission based salary also add in a pay per run type of compensation. So lets say they get $20 per dispatched run and lets say 15% of every ticket issued and 10% of every forfeiture. Teachers...lets say they charge the parents for the grade the child gets. That way they can concentrate on the ones that want to learn and who's parents can afford it...I like this...I'm going to have to put a proposal together and send it to the Governor
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Old March 28th, 2011, 08:07 PM   #45
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bullshit...you need to look at the level of education vs salary and you will see the public worker is FAR behind...the stats they love to show you on TV shows how public employees make more than the dipshit with the GED...not in the same class...nobody I know took thier job in the public secotr with the intentions of making it rich...everybody knew the pay sucked but did it anyway for the benifits
Got any stats, charts etc to display this. Love to see them.

EDIT:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7191103/...r-Compensation

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ic-sector-pay/

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2011...te-sector.html

You bring up a good point.... Should one be compensated for their education if after getting it, they remain in the same position? Why should someone with a college education spreading cold patch make more per hour than someone with just a HS diploma?

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Old March 28th, 2011, 08:35 PM   #46
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You bring up a good point.... Should one be compensated for their education if after getting it, they remain in the same position? Why should someone with a college education spreading cold patch make more per hour than someone with just a HS diploma?
Because they care more if their Range Rover bends a wheel. The dumb ones drive Jeeps and just don't care.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 12:05 AM   #47
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So they researched the job, knew the pay and benefits structure going in, but only have an issue with the pay and benefits structure after they take the job?
Damnit i hate you...you keep pulling me back in.

You are missing what i am saying. They do not have a problem with their pay and benefits once hired, they would have a problem with it if they have to start paying for the benefits that they thought would always be provided to them as part of their salary. The benefits are what is so enticing to someone looking to go into the public sector.

I do not need to give facts because i do not care enough to go look them up. I know what i know from personal experience and real world knowledge, not from what i read on the internet or saw on t.v. I trust my own two eyes and ears over the media any day.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 12:14 AM   #48
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Should one be compensated for their education if after getting it, they remain in the same position? Why should someone with a college education spreading cold patch make more per hour than someone with just a HS diploma?
Again i think your missing the point. no one is arguing that two people who have the same job but different educations should receive a higher wage because of their education. A construction worker is not going to tell his boss he deserves more an hour because he has a degree in zoology, that would be retarded and anyone with common sense knows that.

What is trying to be explained here is that if you have a teacher with a masters degree and an engineer with a masters degree who makes more. Some teachers have as much schooling as doctors, not saying they should get a doctors wage but they are working for the wage of say a manager at mcdonalds or a bank teller.

Cops risk their lives everyday, they may not have a massive education and with cops it is not so much the education that is considered when i say they are underpaid, it is the fact that everyday they may not make home. All that for the wage of a construction worker.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 12:41 AM   #49
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Again i think your missing the point. no one is arguing that two people who have the same job but different educations should receive a higher wage because of their education. A construction worker is not going to tell his boss he deserves more an hour because he has a degree in zoology, that would be retarded and anyone with common sense knows that.

What is trying to be explained here is that if you have a teacher with a masters degree and an engineer with a masters degree who makes more. Some teachers have as much schooling as doctors, not saying they should get a doctors wage but they are working for the wage of say a manager at mcdonalds or a bank teller.

Cops risk their lives everyday, they may not have a massive education and with cops it is not so much the education that is considered when i say they are underpaid, it is the fact that everyday they may not make home. All that for the wage of a construction worker.
The point you're missing is that many of us in the private sector are not making as much as a few years ago, so there is less tax money collected, and that leaves less money to pay public sector wages and benefits. I don't care if they would rather see their pay cut or their benefits cut, but the simple fact is that there is just not as much to go around. I'd love to see teachers and police officers make a million dollar a year for the important work they do, but we can't afford it.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 04:39 AM   #50
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Damnit i hate you...you keep pulling me back in.

You are missing what i am saying. They do not have a problem with their pay and benefits once hired, they would have a problem with it if they have to start paying for the benefits that they thought would always be provided to them as part of their salary. The benefits are what is so enticing to someone looking to go into the public sector.
I understand that. I can see the allure. But in the same breath, public sector workers need to understand that they work in the public sector and the public sector is not immune to swings in the marketplace. If you simply take MI as an example, with our loss of population and business moving out of the state, there is less revenue coming in from taxes. This means less money to pay the public sector employees. Reality is layoffs, concessions or tax increases. I for one will not willingly pay more taxes to sustain the same level of services for a dwindling tax base. This will only drive more people out of the state. Working in the public sector does not guarantee your pay and benefits, at least it shouldn't. If the money that is used to pay the wages came from the production and sale of something, then I wouldnt have an opinion. But since it comes from the money I earn both in my full time job and my personal business, I have a say.

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I do not need to give facts because i do not care enough to go look them up. I know what i know from personal experience and real world knowledge, not from what i read on the internet or saw on t.v. I trust my own two eyes and ears over the media any day.
Thats fine, but if you are going to base your argument on your real world knowledge, you may be missing a few things. The world is bigger than your town. Basing an argument on personal anecdotes does not represent a real world stance. Not to mention there is far to much emotion when you do this. We all would love to see everyone gainfully employed, productive members of society and all that. But the reality is public sector employees are paid with money that is taken from everyone. SO yes, they fall under more scrutiny. Sure it sucks, but again, its something they should have known going in. Most state and local Governments spent like the Fed for years, with no expectation that the economy would turn around some day. Well, that day has come. You can blame the majority of the union leadership as well. They should have used the members dues to fund their health and retirement. Instead they use it to pay themselves 6 figure salaries and fund political campaigns.

You arent going to squeeze anymore money from me until the above issues are addressed. To much waste to simply raise taxes.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 04:46 AM   #51
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Again i think your missing the point. no one is arguing that two people who have the same job but different educations should receive a higher wage because of their education. A construction worker is not going to tell his boss he deserves more an hour because he has a degree in zoology, that would be retarded and anyone with common sense knows that.
To the contrary, Hancho is doing just that. Go back and read his last few posts.

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What is trying to be explained here is that if you have a teacher with a masters degree and an engineer with a masters degree who makes more. Some teachers have as much schooling as doctors, not saying they should get a doctors wage but they are working for the wage of say a manager at mcdonalds or a bank teller.
Teaher and engineer are 2 different jobs. Having a Masters should not gurantee equal pay across the board. There are far more considerations to take into account than just a Masters. And again, did the teacher not know the wage going in?

Let me clarify my stance.... I agree with you. Teachers, the good ones, are underpaid. No doubt about it. But again, there is more going on here than just a simple apples to apples argument. The NEA, the teachers union, the fact our politicians think throwing money at schools will turn out smarter kids, no child left behind.... There is alot of waste in the public education system. Stem the waste and lets give teachers a raise.

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Cops risk their lives everyday, they may not have a massive education and with cops it is not so much the education that is considered when i say they are underpaid, it is the fact that everyday they may not make home. All that for the wage of a construction worker.
Again, I agree. Lets give the police more money. But did they not know the wage going in?

And where are you going to get the money to give teachers and police raises?
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Old March 29th, 2011, 05:02 AM   #52
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I guess I see all this differently then you guys do.
Teachers should be on commission. they should be paid on how many kids in the class PASSING the SAT's & Meps and all the other equivalency tests.

same as cops if the town they are assigned to has a low crime rate and the issues at hand are kept to a minimum they he must be doing his job?
Its not like someone would hide the truth to make themselves look better in the public eye?
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Old March 29th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #53
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The point you're missing is that many of us in the private sector are not making as much as a few years ago, so there is less tax money collected, and that leaves less money to pay public sector wages and benefits. I don't care if they would rather see their pay cut or their benefits cut, but the simple fact is that there is just not as much to go around. I'd love to see teachers and police officers make a million dollar a year for the important work they do, but we can't afford it.
No i understand that very much. I never once in any of my posts claimed that Michigan has all the money in the world so why is this happening. Even with the pay rate decreases the private sector is still ahead of the public sector from a pay stand point.

There are better ways to trim the budget, but that is a completely different argument than this one.

This thread is getting pointless though at this point because it is just people reiterating their previous point over and over in different ways
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Old March 29th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #54
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I guess I see all this differently then you guys do.
Teachers should be on commission. they should be paid on how many kids in the class PASSING the SAT's & Meps and all the other equivalency tests.

same as cops if the town they are assigned to has a low crime rate and the issues at hand are kept to a minimum they he must be doing his job?
Its not like someone would hide the truth to make themselves look better in the public eye?
I agree with you on that. It is just like anything else though, a solid system for figuring out who gets what ec. ect. would need to be in place first. Our government likes to act first think later so i do not foresee a change like that ever working right if it did happen. If it was thought out though it would be a great idea.



Teaher and engineer are 2 different jobs. Having a Masters should not gurantee equal pay across the board. There are far more considerations to take into account than just a Masters. And again, did the teacher not know the wage going in?

Let me clarify my stance.... I agree with you. Teachers, the good ones, are underpaid. No doubt about it. But again, there is more going on here than just a simple apples to apples argument. The NEA, the teachers union, the fact our politicians think throwing money at schools will turn out smarter kids, no child left behind.... There is alot of waste in the public education system. Stem the waste and lets give teachers a raise.



Again, I agree. Lets give the police more money. But did they not know the wage going in?

And where are you going to get the money to give teachers and police raises?[/QUOTE]

Yes teachers knew the wage going in, i am not arguing at all that we should feel bad that they are underpaid. They knew they were going to be unerpaid but still took the job, it is just hard to swallow when your pay essentially gets cut even more when you already are substantially below the mean income for your level of education. Same with the police i am not arguing anything about their current wages. What they did not know going in was that their benefits were in jeopardy thus making their wage even further away from being a decent income. They will never make what their job should make, but they at least deserve to keep what they make presently. I also do not think we should give them raises because i know that is not feasible right now and that is not what i am arguing for anyways. Im simply stating they are underpaid....simple as that....no need to read into that statement any further.

I agree as well on getting rid of unions and trimming the waste because there is a lot of it. But like we all know our government(politicians) is full of a bunch of idiots who do not really care about all of the things affecting the people they are supposed to represent. They care about half assing their jobs enough so that we think they are actually doing something for us that way they keep their job with great pay and benefits. There is a good place to start as far as the big picture goes, cut politicians pay and benefits, no longer allow them to decide what they make and get for a benefit package and give term limits in all branches. When you have the same people for 40 years turning it into a career that is bullshit. You need fresh faces and fresh ideas every few years. But again different argument.

I have this feeling we all actually feel the same way about the actual point at hand and are just arguing two different points that are not 100% from the same page of this story.

Again i agree with most of what you say. My only points are

1) public sector is underpaid(which they knew going in and are okay with)

2) benefits are what make the jobs with less pay enticing

3) Money is running out, but there are better ways to trim the budget other than cutting public sector's wages.

4) There are better ways to pay most public service workers but it is just not feasible to make such a big change when you have idiots in charge if ironing out the wrinkles is said idea.

Those are my main points, all that i have been trying to argue, from what i have read we all more or less agree with all of these things except for some seem to partially agree on the first point.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 04:52 PM   #55
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I agree with you on that. It is just like anything else though, a solid system for figuring out who gets what ec. ect. would need to be in place first. Our government likes to act first think later so i do not foresee a change like that ever working right if it did happen. If it was thought out though it would be a great idea.
One of the issues is the public sector is somewhat protected from short term fluctuations in the market place. The "state" can swallow short term losses via revenue better than a private sector company can. In that public sector employees have better job protection. However, MI has been doing just this thing for so many years now, its hitting the fan. Rather than incremental steps to downsizing when the impact would not have been so large, its going to happen all at once. And its going to hurt. In the same breath, though, public sector employees are paid via taxpayer money. With less taxpayers in the state, This means something has to give. It also means their jobs are in the limelight... Good or bad, thats the reality of working for the taxpayers.

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Yes teachers knew the wage going in, i am not arguing at all that we should feel bad that they are underpaid. They knew they were going to be unerpaid but still took the job, it is just hard to swallow when your pay essentially gets cut even more when you already are substantially below the mean income for your level of education. Same with the police i am not arguing anything about their current wages. What they did not know going in was that their benefits were in jeopardy thus making their wage even further away from being a decent income. They will never make what their job should make, but they at least deserve to keep what they make presently. I also do not think we should give them raises because i know that is not feasible right now and that is not what i am arguing for anyways. Im simply stating they are underpaid....simple as that....no need to read into that statement any further.
I get that... But underpaid compared to who/what? One of my managers wife is a teacher at a public school here in Lansing. She got her masters and is now making $75,000 a year. PLUS Benefits.

But first you must establish what the base worth of a teacher is. Since unions like the idea of having one voice, than I'm going to lump all the teachers together. Statewide test scores are embarrassing. Detroit alone has something like a <25% graduation rate. I say, as a collective since they want to keep their collective bargaining rights, they dont deserve a raise.

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I agree as well on getting rid of unions and trimming the waste because there is a lot of it. But like we all know our government(politicians) is full of a bunch of idiots who do not really care about all of the things affecting the people they are supposed to represent. They care about half assing their jobs enough so that we think they are actually doing something for us that way they keep their job with great pay and benefits. There is a good place to start as far as the big picture goes, cut politicians pay and benefits, no longer allow them to decide what they make and get for a benefit package and give term limits in all branches. When you have the same people for 40 years turning it into a career that is bullshit. You need fresh faces and fresh ideas every few years. But again different argument.
This requires voters to do their homework. Voters are just as bad as politicians when it comes to voting their own best interests. Term limits, cut in pay and go to a part time legislature... Good starts. Eliminate the EIC and the MBT, mandatory drug testing for ANY type of state assistance. In addition to eliminating the waste IN Government, we have to eliminate the fraud BECAUSE of Government.

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I have this feeling we all actually feel the same way about the actual point at hand and are just arguing two different points that are not 100% from the same page of this story.

Again i agree with most of what you say. My only points are

1) public sector is underpaid(which they knew going in and are okay with)

2) benefits are what make the jobs with less pay enticing

3) Money is running out, but there are better ways to trim the budget other than cutting public sector's wages.

4) There are better ways to pay most public service workers but it is just not feasible to make such a big change when you have idiots in charge if ironing out the wrinkles is said idea.

Those are my main points, all that i have been trying to argue, from what i have read we all more or less agree with all of these things except for some seem to partially agree on the first point.
Sounds like it....
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Old March 29th, 2011, 08:30 PM   #56
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I guess I see all this differently then you guys do.
Teachers should be on commission. they should be paid on how many kids in the class PASSING the SAT's & Meps and all the other equivalency tests.
You're assuming that all students can be taught how to take standardized tests. They cannot. Every student learns differently and some are absolutely the most intelligent person in the class, they just don't do well on Standardized tests. IF there is/was a better way to judge if they are "doing a good job" I agree. But I do no agree that Standardized tests are accurate. AT ALL.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 09:06 PM   #57
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You're assuming that all students can be taught how to take standardized tests. They cannot. Every student learns differently and some are absolutely the most intelligent person in the class, they just don't do well on Standardized tests. But I do not agree that Standardized tests are accurate. AT ALL.
This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this,this, this, this, this, this


Tests can lick a big one. I call bullshit every time i hear about those stupid tests.

You really want us to teach kids to plug #'s, rote memorize facts and regurgitate dates and information. Do you really know what it takes in the real world Yetti? You fill out scantrons @ your job daily?

We need kids that can think on their feet (verbally, socially, use technology, use their surroundings and abilities to their advantages), work to solve a delicate problem, evaluate information and make an educated decision and support it!
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Old April 2nd, 2011, 06:26 PM   #58
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Nobody mentioned the fact that out legislators get healthcare for life after 6 years on the job. They need to cut that. I could work at my company for 60 years and when I walk out the door no more ins. Even if they are paying 20% that still cost the taxpayers too much. My pay has been frozen for years but everytime the goverment needs more money they try sticking their hands in my pockets, they are empty. If the money is not there it is time to make some cuts! Most of the people in this state have had to make cut backs in their way of life. It is about time the state did something about it.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:23 AM   #59
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Nobody mentioned the fact that out legislators get healthcare for life after 6 years on the job. They need to cut that. I could work at my company for 60 years and when I walk out the door no more ins. Even if they are paying 20% that still cost the taxpayers too much. My pay has been frozen for years but everytime the goverment needs more money they try sticking their hands in my pockets, they are empty. If the money is not there it is time to make some cuts! Most of the people in this state have had to make cut backs in their way of life. It is about time the state did something about it.
you need to be taxed more if you ask me
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 07:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
it was taken away YEARS ago...had nothing to do with these so called current concessions...public employees should have better compensation and benifit packages than the private secotr for the mear fact they have to put up with the public who really has no idea how these things work

Yep, that about sums up the typical cop/"public servant" attitude....... Cops get all butt hurt over topics like this because they know, just how little they do. Risk their lives every day??? Yeah, just like the rest of us do, driving to work. Paying police officers to collect more money from every day citizens, is just silly, circular thinking. The typical cop is an asshole, they serve as proof, positive that giving a "minor ass" a badge and a bit of power makes for a gaping asshole...... Hancho is only more than happy to prove this point over and over, GEEEZUS just read the gem above!lol The facts show more cops die due to suicide, than are killed in the line of duty. Ever wonder why so many kill themselves? Yeah, I know, they will tell you due to the high amount of pressure, blah, blah, blah.... but it is much more likely that many, can't even stand themselves....... regards, Steve

Last edited by fastevo; April 3rd, 2011 at 08:43 PM.
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